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Couple of questions

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honeto View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2010 at 5:26pm
Simple fact is that man made laws are ever changing. Some things that are unlawful now were may be legal sometime ago. Somethings that are illegal now will be legal later. So man made laws are ever changing and unjust in that sense because where and when can make it lawful at one point and unlawful at others.
On the other hand, laws given to us or are made in the light of revelations sent by our maker are same for all, in 50  years, or in 500 years,  in the East, North, South and so on, no geographic boundaries can change them.

Hasan


Edited by honeto - 09 June 2010 at 5:29pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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elijah-boy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elijah-boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2010 at 5:37pm
: you claim its pretty rude
--- Politeness always brings people to ignore topics that should be otherwise discussed freely. My firm believe is that you can be frank and civilized without showing excessive politeness. Don't hold your reins, please speak up your mind freely.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elijah-boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2010 at 5:54pm
SEMAR:

:Hypothetical is pointless
--- I don't consider this a hypothetical question. If you refuse to answer it on the grounds of being hypothetical then it' fine. Let's leave it then.

:Here an example if your mom and your dad that both you love, they want to kill each other, which side will be on? This is not a real case, you will have difficulties to answer
--- I find this analogy inapplicable, it has nothing to do with the question at hand.
If you are really curious about my reaction to that situation then most likely I will react like this. I'll consider them both killers and will tell them that I don't want to be parented by people who want to kill each other. But then again, I deem your analogy not acceptable to the topic we discuss.

:If you can not find a real case, that prove there is no Islamic law that not good for the betterment of humanity.
--- I disagree with that. Why you making me an expert on the muslim matters? (which I'm not). I'm doing exactly the opposite:
a. I consider you a person familiar with both - Sharia and Canadian civil/criminal laws
b. I consider you a person who is able of making a choice between 2 system of believes in the case of conflict between 2 systems
c. I ask you to formulate the result of that comparison.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elijah-boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2010 at 6:12pm
TO HAYFA:

: Of course Muslims would choose this over others
----- It was a first clear-cut answer. Thank you.

:You have to really understand Shariah
---- I spoke with a lot of people, read a lot of books and to my chagrin was not able to find a clear-cut compilation of Sharia laws on the net. One piece here, a couple there, a couple of comments from famous interpreters, and so on. If you can point me to the source on the internet that lists sharia laws as 'one-stop reference' that would be much appreciated.

:Yes you can loose your hand. Guess what, they have a lot less theft where this law is enforced.
----- We really differ on that point. I want to 'get there' using completely different means.

As to the rest, I understand where your mindset is. Thank you.

A couple of questions about your background:
How old are you?
Are you male/female?
How long you've been living in canada? (or maybe you were born here) In the case you weren't born in canada, which country you've arrived from?
I understand those questions may be considered to personal. I'd understand your reluctance to answer, but I simply treat others they way I don't mind be treated myself. I would answer those questions with no problem.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote elijah-boy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2010 at 6:15pm
TO HASAN:

:Simple fact is that man made laws are ever changing
--- You are not answering the questions at hand and stirring the conversation away from them. I appreciate your opinion, but at this point I would like to stick to the original questions in order not to loose a thread of conversation.

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semar View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote semar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2010 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by elijah-boy elijah-boy wrote:

SEMAR:

:If you can not find a real case, that prove there is no Islamic law that not good for the betterment of humanity.
--- I disagree with that. Why you making me an expert on the muslim matters? (which I'm not). I'm doing exactly the opposite:
a. I consider you a person familiar with both - Sharia and Canadian civil/criminal laws
b. I consider you a person who is able of making a choice between 2 system of believes in the case of conflict between 2 systems
c. I ask you to formulate the result of that comparison.

No, I don't expect you to know about Islamic law. I just want to tell you that Islamic law will not be contradict with civil law as long as the civil law adopt "universal value" of goodness for individual or community at large.
 
Again please should be speific which verse or chapter on Canadian criminal laws you talking about.
Salam/Peace,

Semar

The Prophet said: "Do not eat before you are hungry, and stop eating before you are full"

"1/3 of your stomach for food 1/3 for water, 1/3 for air"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2010 at 7:54pm
Hi Elijah,

I do not live in Canada, I live in the US, I am female. I became a Muslim 6 years ago. So I did not grow up as a Muslim.

And yes it will be hard to find a compilation. And unless you understand Arabic it will be even harder.
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 June 2010 at 5:59am
Elijah . . .

If a Muslim lives in a non-Muslim country like Canada, where they are a minority - there is no sin upon them if they follow the law of the land. Semar explained that nicely.

Muslims have been obligated to behave as peaceful citizens of whatever land they live in,  obey their ruler , follow the laws of the land. Unless they are forced to do something by the laws/ruler that goes against their religious beliefs or fundamentally against the principles of Islam. If that happens - then their duty is not to go & revolt and create issues, but find a peaceful solution. If the government still does not listen to them or make allowances - then they should weigh their priorities and MIGRATE someplace which will allow them to live their life according to Islamic Injunctions.


If the Muslim community is big enough, then they should follow the legal procedures and try convince the government to consider their demands & concerns. There is no harm in that. After all, they are contributing, tax-paying citizens of the land.

So if Canadian Muslims or British Muslims ask the government to allow their religious law to apply to them - they have a democratic/legal right to do so. Non-Muslims needn't freak out like they are freaking out now. Those laws DON'T apply to non-Muslims. YOUR life will not be effected. Same in America - if the resident Muslim community is big enough, and is growing - then they have a right to have their concerns be addressed by the government , possibly have amendments made in laws to accommodate their beliefs.

Shariah Laws DON'T apply to non-muslims - unless a non-muslim wishes to be judged under Shariah Law. EVEN under a Muslim Government , the non-muslim minority is NOT supposed to be judged under Shariah, they have the right to be judged under their own religious law or civil law. So all non-muslims can just relax please. . . . seriously !

All the things you mentioned as being part of Shariah are mostly misconceptions, Genital Mutilation is not part of the Shariah Law. The Thief example is true. . . but when you know only half the story, you are bound to be misled.

Did you know that the punishment of stealing is not as simple as chopping off a hand? Under Shariah, the judge is supposed to look into the circumstances of the Thief. If the thief was a poor man, who had to steal to provide basics for his family, he will not be given this punishment !!! Only a thief who stole with the intention of greed is punished. In today's time this would mean all the big corporate thieves who steal from the public and their shareholders - knowing full well that with the money they have they can hire the best of the lawyers, spend a few years in jail - and enjoy the rest of their lives in luxury. Whilst leaving thier poor victims under mortgage, loans and poverty.

As for Rape . . . the punishment FOR the rapist under Shariah is death !!! Which is a very serious punishment . . . . a person is about to lose their life. Naturally the investigation process / proof/ evidence needs to be strong enough if we are condemning a person to death. You cannot just take one person's word and condemn the "alleged criminal" without solid evidence. I am not too sure about the details in Shariah regarding the investigation process in Rapes . . . so will not comment further. Many scholars are now considering modern investigative techniques such as DNA tests etc, so there are bound to be differing opinions.





"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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