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Are man really stronger then women?

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honeto View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 July 2010 at 9:40pm
Originally posted by schmikbob schmikbob wrote:

Such is always the case where faith trumps logic.  God told me to do it?!  Do I have that right?  I once asked a Catholic scholar why women could not be preists.  The answer was because Jesus did not have female apostles, the church could not.  This is not only faulty logic but has been used to justify millenium of bad reasoning . 
God told me to it is the same as "These are God's laws"



I don't see it as faulty logic, all practicing Muslims, Christians and Hindus I know of practice that, they lower their gaze, dress modestly and do a lot of things in common, only in Islam they are fulfilled completely. Those who follow these rules our maker has set for us, do see results. I can tell you among those who practice it, there is less immorality, sin and common sex crimes. Those who do not practice it you will see higher immoral behavior, sin and crimes.
Its like the place where you work, your boss sets his rules, if you obey them, he is happy with you, if you obey them with a higher degree he is more happy with you.  But when you start to challenge him, and break his rules by living by your own rules at his domain, at your work in this example, he is unhappy with you, he kick you out. Imagine if that was the only place, so once he kicked you out, you are all done.
Not an exact comparison but just to give you some idea to understand why it is important that a creation must know and obey its Creator.
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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schmikbob View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote schmikbob Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 July 2010 at 11:09pm
I'm sure you can produce some study to back up your claim that "I can tell you among those who practice it, there is less immorality, sin and common sex crimes. Those who do not practice it you will see higher immoral behavior, sin and crimes."  I would bet your evidence is anecdotal at best and I would also bet the real evidence shows absolutely no correlation.
 
Also, what if your boss sets rules that are against the law or, better yet, rules that are arbitrary or even prejudicial to, say, women, or blacks???  Do you follow them just because they are the bosses rules?  Following those kind of orders have gotten lots and lots of people into lots and lots of trouble down through the ages.  I think you need to work on a better analogy for something as lofty as why "a creation must know and obey it's creator".  What you know of what your creator wants of you has been given to you as hearsay from someone you never knew.  The same is true of all religions.   
 
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Matt Browne View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt Browne Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 July 2010 at 9:16am
I've said this before the problem is face veils, not veils in general.

Headscarfes to cover hair are fine if women want to wear them. But a veil is not required to prevent women from being looked at as a sex object as many Muslims would argue, because this is the problem of ignorant men Ė and foolish men should not be the reason for women to turn into faceless ghosts whenever they are in public. If anyone has to change itís the men, not the women. When I look at women I see human beings, not sex objects. Good parenting is required to raise boys so that they become mature men. When I look at a beautiful women I see beauty. When women look at attractive men, they see beauty too. No big deal.

Dehumanizing people by taking their faces away is very wrong in my opinion. Facial expressions are a form of nonverbal communication. They are a primary means of conveying social information among humans. There are seven universally recognized emotions shown through facial expressions: fear, anger, surprise, contempt, disgust, happiness, and sadness. Regardless of culture, these expressions are the same.

Face perception is the process by which the brain and mind understand and interpret the human face. Mirror neurons help humans understand goals and intentions of other humans and many researchers argue that the mirror neuron system is involved in empathy. The human faceís proportions and expressions are important to identify origin, emotional tendencies, health qualities, and some social information. From birth, faces are important in the individualís social interaction. Face perceptions are very complex as the face expressions involve vast involvement of areas in the brain. Sometimes damaged parts of the brain can cause specific impairments in understanding faces or prosopagnosia (Source: Wikipedia).

As I said thereís no problem for women wearing a headscarf either as a symbol for religion or to keep the head warm in winter. There is a problem with face veils and moderate Muslim women should come up with creative strategies to make this unfortunate tradition disappear. Face-hiding garments are wrong except when walking to the south pole or riding a motorcycle at high speeds.

Women should participate in public life, show their faces and have a significant influence in society. Showing their faces in private is not enough. Faces is what makes us human. As social creatures we rely on face perception. Therefore taking faces away is a way of dehumanizing people. To me a Burqa symbolizes a mobile prison. Not even the eyes are visible through the bars of the womenís tiny prison windows.

In Western countries we got dress codes too. In a city itís not appropriate to run around naked and itís also not appropriate to run around fully cloaked. This has little to do with religion. Itís a matter of culture and dress code. When Western women travel to Iran, for example as journalists, they respect the local dress code which means wearing a headscarf. This is okay. We should respect that. But we also want some respect when it comes to our culture and our dress codes in Western countries.



A religion that's intolerant of other religions can't be the world's best religion --Abdel Samad
Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people--Eleanor Roosevelt
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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 July 2010 at 4:07am
Originally posted by Matt Browne Matt Browne wrote:

I've said this before the problem is face veils, not veils in general.

Headscarfes to cover hair are fine if women want to wear them. But a veil is not required to prevent women from being looked at as a sex object as many Muslims would argue, because this is the problem of ignorant men Ė and foolish men should not be the reason for women to turn into faceless ghosts whenever they are in public. If anyone has to change itís the men, not the women. When I look at women I see human beings, not sex objects. Good parenting is required to raise boys so that they become mature men. When I look at a beautiful women I see beauty. When women look at attractive men, they see beauty too. No big deal.

Dehumanizing people by taking their faces away is very wrong in my opinion. Facial expressions are a form of nonverbal communication. They are a primary means of conveying social information among humans. There are seven universally recognized emotions shown through facial expressions: fear, anger, surprise, contempt, disgust, happiness, and sadness. Regardless of culture, these expressions are the same.

Face perception is the process by which the brain and mind understand and interpret the human face. Mirror neurons help humans understand goals and intentions of other humans and many researchers argue that the mirror neuron system is involved in empathy. The human faceís proportions and expressions are important to identify origin, emotional tendencies, health qualities, and some social information. From birth, faces are important in the individualís social interaction. Face perceptions are very complex as the face expressions involve vast involvement of areas in the brain. Sometimes damaged parts of the brain can cause specific impairments in understanding faces or prosopagnosia (Source: Wikipedia).

Matt Browne, you re-posted your previous post ?

Quote Women should participate in public life, show their faces and have a significant influence in society. 

Who says Veiled women do not participate in public life?

Participation in public life = showing our face ?

Showing our face = significant influence in society ?

Quote Showing their faces in private is not enough. Faces is what makes us human. As social creatures we rely on face perception. Therefore taking faces away is a way of dehumanizing people. To me a Burqa symbolizes a mobile prison. Not even the eyes are visible through the bars of the womenís tiny prison windows.

What gives you the prerogative to decide how much of my body (as a female) you have a "right" to see? Shouldn't that be my prerogative ?

How you perceive the Burqa has no meaning, influence or importance for the women who wear it. What matters is how they perceive it, and what it symbolizes for them. If for you a covered woman symbolizes a prison, and you view "freedom" as revealing the female body (to whatever extent) - then perhaps there is a problem with the way you perceive things. That's a rather narrow-minded approach.

Quote In Western countries we got dress codes too. In a city itís not appropriate to run around naked and itís also not appropriate to run around fully cloaked.

So you are saying that 'running around' fully clothed is the same as running around naked ? i.e. socially undesirable behavior ? Well, nowadays people are becoming more relaxed and tolerable towards nudity, I wish they would show the same courtesy and tolerance to the fully-cloaked.

Quote   But we also want some respect when it comes to our culture and our dress codes in Western countries.

So you believe that the Western countries should have a right to dictate the minimum amount of body-flesh that should be exposed . . . just because Iran enforces a dress-code ?

"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 July 2010 at 4:23am
Originally posted by Matt Browne Matt Browne wrote:

Dehumanizing people by taking their faces away is very wrong in my opinion. Facial expressions are a form of nonverbal communication. They are a primary means of conveying social information among humans. There are seven universally recognized emotions shown through facial expressions: fear, anger, surprise, contempt, disgust, happiness, and sadness. Regardless of culture, these expressions are the same.

Face perception is the process by which the brain and mind understand and interpret the human face. Mirror neurons help humans understand goals and intentions of other humans and many researchers argue that the mirror neuron system is involved in empathy. The human faceís proportions and expressions are important to identify origin, emotional tendencies, health qualities, and some social information. From birth, faces are important in the individualís social interaction. Face perceptions are very complex as the face expressions involve vast involvement of areas in the brain. Sometimes damaged parts of the brain can cause specific impairments in understanding faces or prosopagnosia (Source: Wikipedia).



Today's age of technological innovation and advancement shoes how depending on "facial expressions" is a thing of the past. And that Humans, bieng higher evolved species have the uncanny ability to communicate & interpret signals/communication without having to "See" the face of the person they are communicating with. Huge multi-national corporations, operating across borders, cultures, and language barriers manage to do just fine without facial communication. In fact those that are still fixated upon having direct face-to-face contact like you suggest - wouldn't fare well in such an environment

People are relying less & less upon facial contact . . . Emails, Chats, SMS, Voice-Conferencing, Phones etc etc etc. Yet they still want Muslim women to reveal their face because they suddenly become unable to communicate effectively ? ? ? ?  

Mind you - communication is also a two-way street. Both parties should be willing to communicate using the same media. Just because some people want to "facially communicate" with a Veiled Woman, while she clearly doesn't wish to . . .  the law should force her to expose her face and make her use the same medium as you ?


"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I♥Jesus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 July 2010 at 9:07am
If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. 5:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 July 2010 at 9:54pm
Chrysalis I am sure you can relate... when I was in Pakistan I did not find the women in a full-face veil lacking assertiveness!  Some can be quite assertive!

I think for people who have only lived here, it IS hard to comprehend that people make it work. I used to wonder to.. but its odd.. people do manage it just fine.

I think with the exception of a few specific situations, people co-exist quite fine. And the women who want to wear it, also choose the extent of their interactions.

Have you ever seen the video made on this Saudi female gynecologist. She did her job- full face veil and all.. And she's a doctor. She met with families- both men and women. Seemed to work for her and the others involved.  
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Beechlgz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 July 2010 at 1:22am
Originally posted by Chrysalis Chrysalis wrote:



The Qur'an speaks of Hijab for the men before it speaks of Hijab for the women. BOTH are commanded to observe Hijab and are given a dress-code. Naturally - given their very obvious biological differences, the dress code is different for both.

 


Sorry to bring up an old point but I don't understand this part and posting a new topic would be kind of spammy...

A woman should keep her torso covered, that I can agree with. But a man doesn't have to. See, that's the part that doesn't make sense to me. A man's naked torso can be incredibly arousing or intimidating to anyone who might happen to catch a glance. Women especially, since it can evoke sexual feelings that are unwanted even by the woman experiencing them. It also allows the man to bear his muscles which, again, makes people feel uncomfortable or awe stricken and is parallel to female beauty.

It doesn't sound all that modest to me when men are allowed to go about with a naked torso. It's just as bad as a woman going about topless.

Can someone please explain to me why this is considered fine and dandy?
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