IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Islam for non-Muslims
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Serious Question
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Serious Question

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 6>
Author
Message
seekshidayath View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 26 March 2006
Location: India
Status: Offline
Points: 3353
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seekshidayath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2010 at 4:43am
Originally posted by drdoug drdoug wrote:



What about the "whom your right hand possesses" clause of this verse. I was told this means slave girls. I find this deplorable, but you had a good explanation for the multiple marriage so if you can explain this I would appreciate it.

Thanks again,
Doug
Good question
 
Slavery already existed long before Islam. It was a system whereby a human captured in wars or kidnapped could be sold as a “possession.” That term applied to both sexes, not to women only. In some cultures slaves were considered subhuman and treated brutally. In Europe, for example, Romans threw Christian slaves to the lions while the public cheered; female slaves were thought to have no souls and were tortured mercilessly; slaves lived in degrading conditions; both sexes were forced to offer sexual favors to their masters; and as “possessions” they had no choice, no will, and no rights.
 
 
“Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), instead of taking concubines, entered into lawful marriages based on reason and wisdom. Maria the Copt was given to him as a present, but rather than taking her as a concubine, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) married her, thus elevating her status by marriage.”
 
 
 
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
Back to Top
drdoug View Drop Down
Member.
Member.


Joined: 04 May 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 15
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2010 at 8:45am
Thanks for the response.

I realize it was common practice, but why didn't God forbid it. Why did he expressly allow sex with slaves?

Thanks,
Doug
Back to Top
Nausheen View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Senior Member

Joined: 10 January 2001
Status: Offline
Points: 4252
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nausheen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2010 at 5:43pm
DrDoug,
Your questions are very informative, so thank you for the same.
 
Wont interrupt Seeks in answers to your various questions. MashAllah the explainations you have received so far are very beneficial to myself as a muslim.
 
as to your last Q, I dont know if physical intimacy was 'expressly' allowed with slave girls.
Islam is a religion which came down in 23 long years. Many commands did not take effect suddenly, while others did.
For example the order to divorce any wife after 4 was a sudden command.
 
However, the command to abstain from alcohol came down in stages. In the same way, abolishing slavery was not a one time command. Muslims were encouraged to free their slaves, and much reward was placed on doing so. To my understanding this encouragement was a means of dissolving the system of slavery from the society. Then having any relations with opposite gender, out of wedlock is forbidden, so what you are looking for, came as an indirect command.
 
Hope someone with better grasp on the subject will explain further.
 
nausheen
<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
[/COLOR]
Back to Top
Chrysalis View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 25 November 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 2036
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2010 at 11:15pm
Originally posted by drdoug drdoug wrote:

Thanks for the response.

I realize it was common practice, but why didn't God forbid it. Why did he expressly allow sex with slaves?

Thanks,
Doug


Hello Doug,

Thought I'd interject.

It is interesting that although it was tolerated previously... Slavery is no longer practiced by Muslims. Infact if you analyse Islamic texts, you notice a pattern in which Prophet Muhammad and Allah are setting the groundwork for abolishment of slavery. At a time when slaves were basically considered property - with virtually no human rights, Islam set the guidelines and controls and introduced HRights. The early revelations started off by giving slaves rights - and then moved on to manumitting slaves. You will notice in later revelations that the penance of almost any sin in Islam was manumitting a slave (setting him/her free).

As to your question, why God didn't expressly forbid Slavery in one go . . . well, Islam is fortunately for us (unfortunately for some) a practical religion. It was Socially, Economically, Realistically not possible nor wise to eradicate slavery in one go !

Imagine 1000s of slaves, who currently have a roof, food and shelter to be immediately set free in the streets. How do they survive? Where do they go? Will they have that social acceptance ? Slaves & Masters were interdependent on each other - so it would be wiser to gradually introduce the concept of freedom, cultivate & encourage it. The way I look at it is, that (to me) Allah eventually wanted freedom and abolishment of slavery, and gave us the laws/means to achieve that. (status quo)

In Islam, it is forbidden to capture a free man and make him/her a slave. So basically, once the previously owned slaves died or were manumitted, there was and is no way to re-initiate slavery. I personally think that the way Islam went about eradicating slavery was very strategic and well-thought !

As for why sexual relations with slaves was allowed:

The slaves obviously had sexual needs. No master was going to allow their slaves to go off and get married. So this was an outlet for them as well. It was also a better alternative than slaves indulging in prostitution. This was one way the slaves could have a healthy sexual relationship. (Look at it from the slave's point of view)

Also, I think it reflects on the non-elitist/racist culture that Islam was cultivating. i.e. Slaves were not considered untouchable or dirty by Muslims. They were normal human beings, and that regardless of the slave's status, she was considered good enough to  have her master's children ! Muslims had no qualms in establishing intimate relations with slaves.

Also, if we analyze it deeper - this was another way to change mindsets and help the process of eradicating slavery. When slaves would have children, the father would more often than not manumit the slave and marry her, so that the children would be free citizens. Having intimate relations would probably also lead to love, compassion, human-bond . . . which again would give the owner reasons to manumit the slave - and see her as a human being, not just property. Human Psyche...






"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
Back to Top
drdoug View Drop Down
Member.
Member.


Joined: 04 May 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 15
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2010 at 6:56am
Thanks for the response.

I thought slaves were allowed to be taken in war? Wasn't one of muhammad's wives a former slave who had been taken in war?

I have even heard fundamentalist say things like "We are going to take your wives as war booty"

Please clarify

Thanks,
Doug
Back to Top
drdoug View Drop Down
Member.
Member.


Joined: 04 May 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 15
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2010 at 6:57am
Also,
what about men. Sex with male slaves was not allowed, and I am assuming that they had needs as well.

Thanks,
Doug
Back to Top
drdoug View Drop Down
Member.
Member.


Joined: 04 May 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 15
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drdoug Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2010 at 2:44pm
I just got through researching this.

She was Muhammad's fifth wife. When he got the 4 wife revelation he only had 4 wives...

Please clarify
Back to Top
abuzaid View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 13 November 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 163
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abuzaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 May 2010 at 1:10am
Regarding killing of poetess.

We understand that non-Muslims do not consider Mohammed PBUH as messenger of God. Have they have considered him messenger of God they would not be non-Muslim in first place.

Claim of prophethood made by Mohammed PBUH is so clear and glaring reality that nobody can deny his claim of being Prophet of God.

This simply means that if someone deny prophethood of Mohammed PBUH, they actually consider him a clear liar.

Now, Islam gives people choice to accept or reject prophethood of Mohammed PBUH. It simply means Islam gives people right to consider him a liar or a truthful man.

Islam and Muslims are open for any honest dialogue on any Islamic topic including prophethood of prophet Mohammed PBUH.

It is very well understood that while conducting dialogue; other party would not accept Mohammed as prophet of God as if had they have accepted Mohammed as messenger; any such dialogue was not at all required.

 

Now, these cases of blasphemy was not at all the case of being critical. They were simply abusive in nature as today too is the case. Plenty of books on Islamic history has been written by Christians and none of the Christian author accepted prophethood of Mohammed. we have not banned those book because they were written in academic style and we can give objective answers to those book. But, if someone comes up abusive words; it is not possible to answer such attack. We Muslims are and supposed to be emotionally attached to Prophet Mohammed PBUH. In eastern world, if someone uses abusive words for their parent, it is not acceptable just because people are emotionally attached to their parents ( I guess west is different nowadays).

Now for majority of 1.5 billion Muslims, Mohammed PBUH is more beloved than their parents and how on earth one can expect that they should feel safe after abusing Prophet Mohammed PBUH.

 

Now, question is why Mohammed PBUH himself punished her..

Duty of Prophethood Mohammed PBUH is to convey the message of God completely in word and action. Part of the same duty is also to make his follower understand the status and honour of last Prophet.

Mind you, before claiming Prophethood, he was highly praised and was known as honest and truthful (Ameen and Sadiq). But, this is only after he claimed Prophethood he was abused. As per rational and objective discussion; Quran was open to it. If you read Quran it directly appeals to human rationale.

Thus, the abuse was not against Mohammed son of Abdullah, it was against Mohammed the Prophet of God and it is one of his responsibilities to convey people how they have to honour the Prophet irrespective of how other think about it. Thus, it was not a personal revenge, it was his responsibility.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 6>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.