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Serious Question

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abuzaid View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abuzaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 May 2010 at 8:41am
5.    Other monotheistic religion

In Islam, deeds and actions are part of faith.  Not acknowledging His choice or rejecting his order is tantamount to rejecting God. Other faith rejects some or all Prophets of God. Rejecting any prophet of God nullify Islam, even if he is a born Muslim. In the same way, not believing in the Day of Judgment also throws a person out of fold of Islam. If a person does not believe in 5-times daily pray, then also the person is not Muslim.  So, Islam is complete submission. So, if a person believes in single God and reject His prophet, his position is same as any other disbeliever.

6. No compulsion in religion, while non-Muslims are taxed.

It simply means that Islam does not force anybody to follow Islam. However, an Islamic state means a state made for Muslims to live as per Islamic Law. If there are non-Muslims in Islamic state, they are like foreigners. We do not believe in national boundaries. (Mind you, concept of nation as a separate entity also is western concept, if you are interested, God willing I can discuss this also). As no nation can treat their nationals and other nationals in the same way, Islam too distinguishes between them. I am not sure if I have answered you correctly.  I would like to see detailed question on the issue.


Edited by abuzaid - 24 May 2010 at 4:19am
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abuzaid View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abuzaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 May 2010 at 6:24pm
7.Issue of slavery and having sex with slave woman
This is long topic. I am not again sure what exactly your objection is. For the sake of simplicity, I divide this discussion in three parts.
   a.Permissibility of taking slaves in war
   b.Permissibility of having sex with slave woman
   c.Impermissibility for woman to have sex with her male slave
Let me take up these issues one by one.
   a.Permissibility of taking slaves in battle.
While dealing with laws related to other religion or culture; people automatically tend to take their prevalent culture as reference point.
One of the common problems with people today is when it comes it law dealing with wars; they tend to take UN charter of human rights and Geneva Convention as absolute source of morality. In reality, UN and all its laws are specifically designed to protect the source and energy of  some powerful nations so that it can only of be used against the weak nations. None of these laws applies in benefit of weak nations and nothing can be used against strong nations. Today almost all violation of so called “humans rights” are either done by these strong nation or by the support of these strong nations. Again, west bashing is not my intention here. I am presenting this only to prove that you do not have any tool called “absolute morality” to measure Islam’s justice.
For me difficulty here is that, you presume that all types of slavery is wrong in absolute sense without giving your proof. I am sure you find it extremely difficult to digest that someone in this era is asking you “Why slavery is wrong?” Still you owe the answer to this question. Let me explain why slavery was best solution in some cases.  Say a fight took place between Muslims and Non-Muslims for whatever reason it might be. In case if Muslim won the war and has taken plenty of war captives in the war. What Muslims can do?
We will have following options; I am giving these options along with possible consequences
        I.Free all of them. What will be result? They will go back and fight against us. Freeing them can directly cost lives of Muslims!! Right? What should we do then?
        II.Kill all of them. In my knowledge Islam does allow killing captive by consultation of people in special case. But, it does not allow killing common captives. Do you think we should do that?
        III.Put all of them in prison and feed them free until they die or some change in condition takes place. This would be a burden on Muslims.
        IV.When they surrender during the battle, kill them instead of taking them as captive. This strategy is believed to be applied by US during 1991 Iraq war.
There are issues with all of these options. Islam keeps the door open for a 5th option and that is to enslave them. There are lots of reasons to do that. By enslaving captives Muslim population can absorb a section of population of enemies in such a way that our social values does not get affected by them and eventually they become part of Islamic society either by embracing Islam or still remain on their own religion. Islam gives lots of rules to behave nicely with slaves and by many other means encourages to free slaves. Infact freeing slave is considered one of the greatest act of charity. For many of act of sins, freeing slave is considered atonement. A point is to be noted is that making them slave will be based on decision of ruler and consultation of the supposed body. Now, if you disagree with me, you have to give me another alternative for POW. Now, you can ask me a simple question, since there was no UN at the time of Prophet does the rule still applies. I say yes... In my understanding of today world scenario, UN is one of the biggest enemy of Islamic ideology. On every front UN acted as enemy of Islam. So, for us Muslims UN means nothing.
   b.Permissibility of having sex with slave women is another issue. I guess you are taking up issue on moral ground. Well, what exactly is the difference between two people having sex with marriage and without marriage? If they are married, it simply means that their act of sex is with the consent of existing social system. It also means that they have taken mutual responsibility of the act and this act of sex is with the associated emotional and social responsibility. This responsibility also included owning the child as a result of the act of sex. Now, in case of having sex with a slave woman, all the points that are related to marriage get fulfilled.  The only point you may differ here is about consent!. OK, in Islam concept of consent is different from west even in the case of married couple. Here it is not necessary for husband to seek wife’s consent every time he wants to have sex. Rather, it is told that whenever, husband wants to have sex, wife should submit to him if she does not have a valid excuse. (You may disagree here with Islam; I am open to discuss it further). So, the marriage contract itself is consent as long as she is married to her husband. Now, if a woman got captured in a war!!! Is not she giving her consent that in case she gets captured by Muslim she is willing to have sex with her master? If not, why should she get in a situation where she gets captured by Muslim army?
   c.Another issue you raised is about Muslim woman having sex with slave man. This question comes from another doctrine of west called “equality or rather identicality of gender”. Sorry, we do not buy that belief. In Islam, we have different social roles for men and women. In reality western belief of equality of gender is one of greatest deception of this era.  There are such a great psychological and biological difference between men and women that only a psychotic person can deny it. So, we do not believe the premises of the question itself.  I think you understand what I am saying and I do not need to explain what is the difference between men having sex with a slave woman and woman having sex with a slave man.
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abuzaid View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abuzaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 May 2010 at 7:56am

   9. Muslims abusing pope and inciting violence against non-Muslims.
First of all, this is not done by any recognized and respected entity of Muslims. It is not good to hold all Muslims responsible for the action of few or many people. You also need to understand that pope deliberately invited for this abuse. In a speech on logic and religion, he referred to saying of a defeated old king unnecessarily. If at all any religion had been in harmony with logic; who other than Islam is in better position. After all biggest clash between logic and religions took place in medieval Europe and it was Christian dogmas which checked scientific progress. You also need to understand the detailed historical perspective of position of Muslims that I gave in the beginning before discussing actual issues.


   10. Intolerance of Muslims with opponents and Issue of Wafa Sultan.
I am not sure about which video you have seen. There are many videos of her on the Internet.  I have seen videos in which she has abused Prophet Mohammed PBUH. Her case is no different than that of poetess which we have discussed earlier. You might be under impression that western media is open to any objective discussion on Islam and it is not right to give death threats to those who are “critical” about Islam. I think western media is extremely biased; it selects only those “moderate Muslim” who already have accepted western ideology without analyzing it critically. Also, you need to give some discount to Muslims because of their lack of experience in dealing with media issues as I discussed in the beginning of this discussion. Also, none of the respected and organized entity has given her death thread. I personally, think that she should be left on her way. I am saying this because I think this is best strategy at this stage.
OK, I finished my answers. Now, give your feedback if you are reading this thread.
warm regards.
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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 June 2010 at 4:37am
I came across a hadith the other day Dr.Doug and thought of your post. (Hadith = Sayings of Prophet Muhammad, they are 2nd most important source of Islamic Law)

Narrated Abu Burda's father (Radi-Allahu 'anhu):

The Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Sallam) said, "Three persons will get
their reward twice. (One is) a person who has a slave girl and he educates
her properly and teaches her good manners properly (without violence) and
then manumits and marries her. Such a person will get a double reward.

(Another is) a believer from the people of the scriptures who has been a
true believer and then he believes in the Prophet (Muhammad). Such a person
will get a double reward. (The third is) a slave who observes Allah's
Rights and Obligations and is sincere to his master."

Bukhari Vol. 4 : No. 255

It were ahadith and Qur'anic verses such as the above, that laid the groundwork for the future abolishment of slavery.




"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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fatima View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatima Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 June 2010 at 10:14am
Bismillah irrahman irrahim
Assalamu alaikum warahmatullahe wabarakatuhu
It was a very good discussion, one thing that i knew and wanted to share it with every one is from very first pages about Sayyidina Muhammad sallallhu alaihi wasslam's marriage with Zaynab (ra). Islam forbids marrying your own daughter in laws after their divorces or any case. Zayd (ra) being the adopted son, Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala wanted to differentiat between the two. It was an arab custom to take adopted kids as their real kids and even have share in heritance and everything same. So a person would never marry wife of his adopted son it was not even thinkable. That was a custom that needed to be broked and was one of the hardest things thats why Allah subhanahu wata'ala chose Sayyidina Muhammad sallallhu alaihi wassalm to break this norm. Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wassalm used to tell it to Zayd (ra) to make his marriage work thats when the verses were revealed. You could go and check the tafsir of these verses in ibne kathir. It clears it completely that how Sayyidina Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wassalam had to perform things which were hard for a normal humna beings Subhan Allah
wassalam
Say: (O Muhammad) If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving, MercifuL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 June 2010 at 11:36am
Came across another Hadith on "Slavery" today:

Narrated Abu Musa (Radi-Allahu 'anhu):

The Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Sallam) said, "
Free the captives, feed
the hungry and pay a visit to the sick."

Bukhari Vol. 4 : No. 282

"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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