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rocitreal View Drop Down
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    Posted: 20 July 2005 at 9:57pm

this section of the board seems to have some nutty extremists screwing up the non-muslims perspective of Islam.  Id appreciate it if the crazy nutty people move on to another board, this one has many moderate nice muslims who are not in the same boat as a few i see in World Politics.

If you support Bin Laden go live in a cave with him and get out of the country if you hate the government.

If you think america is equal to Nazi Germany you need to study history further because your warped currently.

 



Edited by rocitreal
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZamanH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2005 at 1:56am
Nazis were bad because they exterminated other Westerners. Americans, British and French must be lot better because they exterminated coloured people from other parts of the world.
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
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..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocitreal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2005 at 10:47am

Originally posted by ZamanH ZamanH wrote:

Nazis were bad because they exterminated other Westerners. Americans, British and French must be lot better because they exterminated coloured people from other parts of the world.

nope, you got that all wrong man.  If the US wanted to exterminate they would nuke Iraq and Syria to start with, not waste billions on trying to clean up the region.

Its amazing how people can compare the US government with Nazi Germany.  There are no similarities whatso ever.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Finefair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2005 at 1:40pm

So we try to understand these terrorist acts, not out of context as the mass media continually try to program us to do, but firmly in the context of our disastrous medalling and occupation in the Middle East over the past decade and more. We realize that our foreign policy has made millions of people around the world, and many in this country too, so incensed with rage that they are willing to support attacks on soft civilian targets, just as our government has supported such attacks on a much grander scale in the Middle East. This is our karma, the blowback from Blair's vicious foreign policy that has seen him pulling this country into a war that few wanted, and one against which a million or more of us demonstrated against here in London back March 2003, but to no avail (such is the state of British democracy).

The fault, is not in our stars, But in ourselves, that we are underlings." The moral slugs who fabricated the excuses for this war, and who helped to mobilize weak-souled men and women into a mindless support for it, are certainly accountable for their wrongs. But instead of focusing our anger upon them – which would be but another act of projection of our own "dark side" onto them – we would be better advised to confront our own existential cowardice. Political leaders amass power only through our moral exhaustion; they are strong only because we have allowed ourselves to become weak. Perhaps in our willingness to get acquainted with our "shadow," we may discover the best defense against those who have mastered the art of manipulating men and women of the west into the subservient but malignant herds that are destroying mankind.

The truth is that behind all crime no matter how small it is, the root cause is usually injustice. Does this injustice make the crime justifiable? Off course not! But the powerful & the influential of the world has to come to this realization that till the day they deliver justice, peace & prosperity to the majority oppressed, brutalized and persecuted masses, their glass houses shall always remain vulnerable. That’s just a fact of life, sooner we reach this apprehension better it will be for all of us.The truth is that behind all crime no matter how small it is, the root cause is usually injustice. Does this injustice make the crime justifiable? Off course not! But the powerful & the influential of the world has to come to this realization that till the day they deliver justice, peace & prosperity to the majority oppressed, brutalized and persecuted masses, their glass houses shall always remain vulnerable. That’s just a fact of life, sooner we reach this apprehension better it will be for all of us.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote b95000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2005 at 4:07pm
Originally posted by ZamanH ZamanH wrote:

Nazis were bad because they exterminated other Westerners. Americans, British and French must be lot better because they exterminated coloured people from other parts of the world.


No, that's not an over statement - whew!
Listen, germs did more to kill the indiginous populations of North and South America then any supposed 'plan' to exterminate them.  Are you going to impugn Allah now, because of His poor design for life?
Bruce
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote b95000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2005 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by Finefair Finefair wrote:


So we try to understand these terrorist acts, not out of context as the mass media continually try to program us to do, but firmly in the context of our disastrous medalling and occupation in the Middle East over the past decade and more.  We realize that our foreign policy has made millions of people around the world, and many in this country too, so incensed with rage that they are willing to support attacks on soft civilian targets,

B: Are you seriously suggesting that there is a legitimacy to attacking 'soft civilian targets' - let's just get down to it - let's say kids collecting candy - that that's somehow legitimate to slaughter them to bits in order to make one's 'rage' known (political rage, no less)?  Come on!

We realize that our foreign policy has made millions of people around the world, and many in this country too, so incensed with rage that they are willing to support attacks on soft civilian targets, just as our government has supported such attacks on a much grander scale in the Middle East.

B: 'supported such attacks on a much grander scale' - are you saying the MNF supports killing kids and killing civilians?  That civilian deaths are planned and intentional?  Get real!

This is our karma, the blowback from Blair's vicious foreign policy...The moral slugs who fabricated the excuses for this war...manipulating men and women of the west into the subservient but malignant herds that are destroying mankind.

B: Do you call ending mass murders 'vicious foreign policy?'  How so?!  How can you be so blithely disconnected from the facts of this liberation?  Saddam will also never again use WMDs.  Further, the AQ connections with Iraq are now covert and illegal.

The truth is that behind all crime no matter how small it is, the root cause is usually injustice. Does this injustice make the crime justifiable? Off course not! But the powerful & the influential of the world has to come to this realization that till the day they deliver justice, peace & prosperity to the majority oppressed, brutalized and persecuted masses, their glass houses shall always remain vulnerable.

B: I agree, we need to unite and work together against the issues of injustice that contribute to the atmosphere that may allow people to take revenge in heinous ways.  I also agree though, that morally, no crime, whether by government or quasi-government (like al Qaeda) is justifiable.  So let's have our arguments about the democracies' governance (because we can, we're allowed, we won't be shot down at city hall) - but how do we reform AQ for their 'crimes against humanity?'
Bruce
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whisper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2005 at 4:32pm

Finefair, a just, fair and balanced British approach. We can treat an illness only with its proper diagnosis, not merely by trying to score a few points like some others here infesting our world by trying to market slaughter and occupations under some freshly cut Liberation labels.



Edited by Whisper
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whisper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2005 at 4:39pm

FineFair if anyone ever mentions how Iraqis are celbrating their Liberation, please, show them this clip from none other than their own Washignton Post:

Iraqis Put Contempt For Troops On Display

By Edward Cody
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, June 12, 2004; Page A01

BAGHDAD, June 11 -- A pair of AH-64 Apache helicopter gunships thumped back and forth overhead, scouring residential streets for insurgents. Dun-colored Bradley Fighting Vehicles snorted and wheeled around, their tracks gouging holes in the tarmac. A dozen Humvees stood sentry, closing off the four-lane avenue to Iraqi cars, while nervous American soldiers with M-16 automatic rifles forbade local residents from approaching.

"Look at this," said Ghassan Abu Ahmed, raising his hand in a sweeping gesture toward the tableau of military might. "This is freedom? It is crazy."

A car bomb had just hit a U.S. military convoy passing down the main avenue Friday afternoon in southwest Baghdad's Sayediyeh neighborhood, one of the near-daily attacks on occupation troops across Iraq. By the standards of Iraqi violence over the past two months, it was not particularly bloody. The U.S. military reported no serious casualties. But for what it told about Iraqis' attitudes toward the 13-month-old U.S. occupation, the attack was devastating.

"What Saddam did was awful, but what the Americans are doing is worse," said Abu Ahmed, a laborer who lives with his wife and four sons in a government-built apartment house flanking the road. "They say they are bringing us freedom. But this is what they bring."

Since U.S. forces drove to Baghdad and overthrew President Saddam Hussein in April 2003, the 138,000 American soldiers stationed here have lost their status as liberators in the eyes of most Iraqis. Polling by the U.S.-led Coalition Provisional Authority has chronicled a steady souring of opinion, with the most recent surveys showing about 80 percent of Iraqis with an unfavorable opinion of U.S. troops.

They have been encouraged in their views by Muslim preachers, who, judging by their sermons, have concluded that the U.S. occupation should end immediately if peace is to be restored to Iraq. To buttress their arguments, they repeatedly have cited the abuse of Iraqi captives at Abu Ghraib prison, which has helped crystallize opinion against the presence of U.S. soldiers.

"It was discovered that the freedom in this land is not ours. It is the freedom of the occupying soldiers in doing what they like, such as arresting, carrying out raids, killing at random or stealing money," Sheik Mohammed Bashir declared in his sermon Friday at Um al-Oura, a Sunni Muslim mosque in the middle-class Ghazaliya neighborhood.

"No one can ask them what they are doing, because they are protected by their freedom," he continued. "No one can punish them, whether in our country or their country. The worst thing is what was discovered in the course of time: abusing women, children, men, and the old men and women whom they arrested randomly and without any guilt. They expressed the freedom of rape, the freedom of nudity and the freedom of humiliation."

Sheik Bagir Saad at the Hikma Mosque in Sadr City, a stronghold of Shiite Muslim militiamen who have confronted the occupation militarily, denounced U.S. and U.N. plans that he said call for increased involvement by the international body and an increased emphasis on military forces from a variety of countries.

"The new U.N. resolution calls for multinational forces, but we want to inform all the countries that we don't want their armies, whether Arab, Islamic or foreign armies, because we will look at any army coming to Iraq as an occupation, and they should not send their children into this trap," he said.

The Baghdad residents who lined up to watch as U.S. soldiers clustered around their wrecked Humvees on Friday were clearly among the majority who have heeded the call of their sheiks. No one was heard expressing concern for the soldiers who were bombed. Judging by their comments, the neighbors of Sayediyeh's middle-class apartments looked at the avenue and saw enemies in desert camouflage.

Mohammed Ali Ahmed, 24, a worker who lives nearby, complained that the wounded U.S. soldiers were picked up and driven away for medical care by an Iraqi civilian ambulance that happened by. Iraqi ambulances are not for occupying troops, he declared.

"They shouldn't have taken them in the ambulance. They should have left them there, left them to die," Ahmed said to a neighbor.

"That's not right," objected Aqil Kitab, 28, another worker who was standing next to him. "Have you ever been in the army? Even your enemy, when he is wounded, you have to treat him. Then you can interrogate him or put him in a prisoner-of-war camp. The ambulance driver did his job. It was the right thing to do."



Edited by Whisper
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