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Heaven and hell
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Alwardah View Drop Down
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    Posted: 01 September 2005 at 2:34pm

As Salamu Alaikum

Masha Allah a very informative discussion.

Insha Allah let's pray that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala will shower His Mercy upon us so that we can be amongst those who enter Paradise. Ameen!

"ASH-HADU ANLA ELAHA ILLA-ALLAH WA ASH-HADU ANNA MOHAMMADAN RASUL-ALLAH".

Wa Alaikum Salam  
�Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)
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Beyond our own religious dogma and theological beliefs we can understand that those who exist in Hell are those whos actions deemed them to be condemned souls who will forever be away from God. Those who exist in heaven are the individuals whose actions deemed them worthy of God's mercy and love through being near to him. When we add our doctrinal interpretation we must go by the implications on what God has meant in the Qur'an. Surely we can equate the mercy of God to the non-Muslims (jews and Christians and Sikhs) to modern times.

I firmly believe (ass doctrine supports) that those who believe in the Oneness of God not associating partners with them are in fact making at least 1/4 of the Islamic creed which itself is a relation to our own deen. Sikhs ar enot mentioned in the Qur'an yet the believe in One God without associating partners with him. So again we should look at these standpoints before condemnation
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Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

assalamu alaikum

i am not talking about either group, but who ever has said la illaha illah llah meaning they have believed in Allah without asociating partners with him. If u can not imagine who these people may be or a label you would give them then good becouse the above aplies to who ever fits its description regardless of percieved labels.
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Points: 4251 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nausheen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2005 at 9:33pm

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

Originally posted by hope hope wrote:

   

Anyway, Since I can't do ijtihad and you can't either I have to go by what scholars read from this.  Please read this and if you find anything from another scholar that is different please post here. Thanks.

The following is taken from: On the validity of all religions in the thought of ibn Al-'Arabi and Emir 'Abd al-Qadir by Nuh Ha Mim Keller

5. The Fate of Non-Muslims in the Afterlife 

The reason that contemporary writers affected by the writings of Gunon and Schuon, such as Chittick and Gai Eaton (or such as Martin Lings, Titus Burckhardt etc.), seem to want the universal validity of all religions at any price, even to the extent of attributing it to masters like Muhyiddin ibn al-`Arabi ("in principle") or Emir `Abd al-Qadir ("he protected the Christians against massacre by taking them into his own home because he understood" [as if other scholars considered massacring them halal]) would seem to be the emotive impalatability of followers of other religions going to hell. Where is the mercy? Would Allah put someone in the hellfire merely for worshipping in another religion besides Islam? This question is answered by traditional Islam according to two possibilities:  

(1) There are some peoples who have not been reached by the message of the Prophet of Islam (Allah bless him and give him peace) that we must worship the One God alone, associating nothing else with Him. Such people are innocent, and will not be punished no matter what they do. Allah says in surat al-Isra',  

"We do not punish until We send a Messenger" (Qur'an 17:15). 

These include, for example, Christians and others who lived in the period after the spread of the myth of Jesus godhood, until the time of the prophet Muhammad (Allah bless him and give him peace), who renewed the call to pure monotheism.  

The great Muslim scholar, Imam Ghazali, includes in this category those who have only been reached with a distorted picture of the Messenger of Islam (Allah bless him and give him peace), presumably including many people in the West today who know nothing about Allah's religion but newspaper stories about Ayatollahs and mad Muslim bombers. Is it within such people's capacity to believe? In Ghazali's view, such people are excused until after they have had an opportunity to learn the undistorted truth about Islam (Ghazali: "Faysal al-tafriqa," Majmu'a rasa'il al-Imam al-Ghazali, 3.96). This of course does not alter our own obligation as Muslims to reach them with the da'wa.  

(2) A second group of people consists of those who turn away from God's divine message of Islam, rejecting the command to make their worship God's alone; whether because of blindly imitating the religion of their ancestors, or for some other reason. These are people to whom God has sent a prophetic messenger and reached with His message, and to whom He has given hearing and an intellect with which to grasp it but after all this, persist in associating others with Allah, either by actually worshipping another, or by rejecting the laws brought by His messenger (Allah bless him and give him peace), which associates their own customs with His prerogative to be worshipped as He directs. Such people have violated God's rights, and have accepted to go to hell, which is precisely what His messengers have warned them of, so they have no excuse:  

"Truly, Allah does not forgive that any be associated with Him; but He forgives what is less than that to whomever He wills" (Qur'an 4:48). 

In either case, Allah's mercy exists, though for non-Muslims unreached by the message, it is a question of divine amnesty for their ignorance, not a confirmation of their religions validity. It is worth knowing the difference between these two things, for one's eternal fate depends on it.

Hope this helps, insha allah.

Maa salaama,

Nausheen
<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR]
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Points: 2549 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rami Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 August 2005 at 6:52pm

Bi ismillahir rahmanir raheem

 

assalamu alaikum

Quote You know very well that I am talking about rejecting faith. You cannot obey Allah (swt) if you reject his PROPHETS. I don't know of any muslims that don't believe in Prophet Mohammed. It's a question of shaddah. Not whether not someone who ALREADY accepts shaddah pays zakat every year or not! Big difference.
 

This is not corect, most certainly you can obey parts of allahs message and ignore others a basic example is that we believe in the 10 commandments and so do jews and christians. Any one among this group who follows them is obeying Allah in this respect. Otherwise i dont see at all what you are saying, rejecting islam does not mean the person is not obeying Allah outright.

Quote  If there is a question-- what is said in the Qu'ran trumps what is in the hadith. Not that they contradict but the Qu'ran is the direct word of Allah (swt) whereas the hadith are NOT. They can even vary  in the degree to the certainity of what they contain. The answer is SO clear in the Qu'ran and you are trying to piece together something from the hadith to support your very assumption that the kaffir will be in jennah. Kaffir in hell eternally. The hadith that you keep referring to is about muslims. ONly musims that have to be purified will be sent to hell before they can enter jennah. It does not apply to kaffirs. Kaffirs go to hell and stays there..
  

The idea that the Quran Trumps ahadith is plain wrong we take both together, the hadith i quoted you is from sahih bukhari there is no question about the authenticity of the hadith and you can not reject it simply becouse you dont like it. When you pary and say the shahadah do you simply say La illaha illah llah or La illaha illah llah muhamad rasul allah ?

Quote   Anyway, Since I can't do ijtihad and you can't either I have to go by what scholars read from this.  Please read this and if you find anything from another scholar that is different please post here. Thanks.
  

I am going by what scholars have said, if you dont want to accept what i am saying that is your right the scholars have diffrent opinions on a range of issues.

Quote   Seriously, do you still deny that anyone who isn�t a muslim is going to hell. The Christians, Jews, and Hunafah (who came before islam) were allowed entry into heaven...but once islam came, their deens were corrupted and destroyed....the true Christians, Jews, and Hunafah  ARE LONG GONE... only the Muslims of the Qu�ran remain present-day and only they can enter Jennah.
  

Your argument is based on asumptions and ignoreing certain evidence, a scholar looks at all the evidence not just part of it, dont simplify my argument to jews christians [edited] these are just lables there are many people out there who do not fit into this conveniant mould.

There are 7 levels of jahanam do you also know who is going in which level? i think you should read sister nausheens post carfully



Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Nausheen View Drop Down
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Points: 4251 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nausheen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27 August 2005 at 8:43am

Auzubillahi minash shaitan ir rajeem

Bismillah ir rahman ir rahim,

The basis of faith is that one believes in Allah, his messengers (all of them, excluding none), His angels  and His books (all of them, excluding none).

Those who have any variation in their faith to the above are not Muslim, and their religion is not Islam.

As it is said in surah Imran verse 19, if one has a religion other than Islam it shall not be accepted of him (not actual translation). It is also confirmed by scholars that this verse abrogates those verses of the Quran that say "any who believes in allah is a muslim".

So we should not deny that Jews and christians recieved the word of Allah, and they worshiped Allah as their Lord, but their religion is not complete or perfect, after it has become incumbent on mankind to follow another book and another prophet.

We cannot say even for a kafir if he is going to heaven or hell, but sure we should know what are the basic requirements of this religion (ike Islam).

Maa salaama,

Nausheen
<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR]
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and yes  to your first question!
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The Jews are cursed in the Qu'ran here are three different interpretaions:

005.064
YUSUFALI: The Jews say: "Allah's hand is tied up." Be their hands tied up and be they accursed for the (blasphemy) they utter. Nay, both His hands are widely outstretched: He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it; but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief.


PICKTHAL: The Jews say: Allah's hand is fettered. Their hands are fettered and they are accursed for saying so. Nay, but both His hands are spread out wide in bounty. He bestoweth as He will. That which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them, and We have cast among them enmity and hatred till the Day of Resurrection. As often as they light a fire for war, Allah extinguisheth it. Their effort is for corruption in the land, and Allah loveth not corrupters.


SHAKIR: And the Jews say: The hand of Allah is tied up! Their hands shall be shackled and they shall be cursed for what they say. Nay, both His hands are spread out, He expends as He pleases; and what has been revealed to you from your Lord will certainly make many of them increase in inordinacy and unbelief; and We have put enmity and hatred among them till the day of resurrection; whenever they kindle a fire for war Allah puts it out, and they strive to make mischief in the land; and Allah does not love the mischief-makers.

(Notice how God uses the present tense. The disobedient Yahoods of old are the same of now. The Jews who followed Musa (AW) and Ibrahim (AW)---. These WERE the Jews of Allah but they are long gone) .

 

 

The Jews are the transgressors they reject the authority of Allah (swt): 

 We made a covenant of old with the Children of Israel and We sent unto them messengers. As often as a messenger came unto them with that which their souls desired not (they became rebellious). Some (of them) they denied and some they slew. 5:70

 

�O people of the Scripture! (Jews and Christians): Why do you disbelieve in the Ayaat of Allaah, [the Verses about Prophet Muhammad present in the Tawraat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] while you (yourselves) bear witness (to their truth)?

O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians): Why do you mix truth with falsehood and conceal the truth while you know?

And a party of the people of the Scripture say: �Believe in the morning in that which is revealed to the believers (Muslims), and reject it at the end of the day, so that they may turn back��
Aal �Imraan 3:70-72

 

�O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Awliyaa� (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Awliyaa� of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa�), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allaah guides not those people who are the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust)� al-Maa'idah 5:51

 


�Verily, those who disbelieve (in the religion of Islam, the Qur�aan and Prophet Muhammad) from among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) and Al..Mushrikoon will abide in the fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.�

al-Bayyinah 98:6

 

�And verily, you will find them (the Jews) the greediest of mankind for life and (even greedier) than those who ascribe partners to Allaah (and do not believe in Resurrection � Magians, pagans, and idolaters). Everyone of them wishes that he could be given a life of a thousand years. But the grant of such life will not save him even a little from (due) punishment. And Allaah is All-Seer of what they do�[al-Baqarah 2:96]

 
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