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myahya View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote myahya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2009 at 7:01am
Moses

Quran (16:2) he sends down the angels with the Spirit by his command to those of his worshipers whom he wishes, (saying:) 'warn, there is no god except me, therefore fear me. '

What is better than this good news? He says he can do it and he will do it if he wishes himself. Means for revealing the angels by the Holy Spirit for each worshiper of God, there is only one thing needed: God`s will. If you believe in God, it`s enough , you don`t need to believe in yourself!

This verse does not disprove following the prophet. It proves, however, that the prophets were supported by angels and the spirit.

Quran (2:118) and those who have no knowledge say: why doth not allah speak unto us, or some sign come unto us? even thus, as they now speak, spake those (who were) before them. their hearts are all alike. we have made clear the revelations (by spiritual talking=BAEIANA) for people who are sure. Again as you see he is capable to talk in their hearts to everybody who is sure

The meaning of this verse is exactly in opposite direction if what you want to say. This English translation has problem. “Bayyene” generally means any clear sign. The verse is saying that: Although “Bayyene”  (very clear Signs like miracles) are made for people (who become sure),  but those who have no knowledge say :" Why does Allah not speak to us? or why does any sign not come to us (directly)?" this is same as what the people said before (people of other prophets). Their hearts are alike.

Now, please put your suggestion meaning for the word مِن دُونِ   and then you will see yourself!  Do you need more examples?!  If it`s not clear , it’s easy to explain more.

First of all, Quran (11:13) and (2:23) places what is revealed to the prophet in opposite category of Men Doone Allah. Then it asks people (who deny them or are not sure about them) to bring the same with help or witness which is not from Allah, if they can. Where does it show or prove that “following the prophet” is Men Doonellah?!!!

Interesting is that Quran (9:16) also confirms and emphasizes what I am saying. It confirms that “following the prophet” does not fall in the meaning of Men Doone Allah. Let us see the translation:  “Do you think that you would be left to yourself while Allah does not know those among you who strive and take none for friends and protectors except Allah, His Messenger, and the Believers? And Allah is well-acquainted with all (that ye do).

Quran (10:18) is again talking about worshiping not about following. Therefore, if one worships a prophet (or anything who is not God), then such an act is Men Doone Allah.

At the first: say I am just a human like you “and “at the last is the reason: “don`t worship someone beside your God “, obviously there are people who do this and the message is for them, hopefully you are not among them.

There might be people who have done so or have such a tendency. Where did I talk about worshiping the prophet?!! The act of “worshiping a prophet” is Men Doonellah but the act of “following the prophet” is Men Ghebalellah (from God and God’s command, opposite of Men Doonellah). No prophet has told people to worship them, even Isa Massih (as).

Don`t need any arguing about the message of this verse, I confirm the message by another verses which explain that for us for free! See:(2-108&109)

Quran (2:108 and 109) is again for people who do not “follow” the prophet. It is obvious because people started to ask the prophet to bring different things for them in a way that they simply prefer more. Such an asking was the same as what the people of Moses (as) asked him to do. You can review the verses where Quran explains what people asked Moses (as) to do which were against the will of God.

What does it have to do with “following” the prophet? Furthermore, are you saying that the above asking refers to any kind of asking? What if a human came to the prophet asking for a guidance towards God? Can you show that such an asking falls in the meaning of Quran(2:109) ?!

Very good , that sounds we are agree in this point, I said “he” means a human , cannot lead anybody even himself toward the heaven, but “his message” is different !

I did not say that the prophet’s body would lead people to heaven. Follow his message then, and do not try to depart between believers and him regarding loving him, following him and obeying him included in his message.

Yes , all right, then let`s look through the previous verses as well

Thank you for bringing Quran (72:20-27). These verses are supporting the claim of following the prophet. Particularly Quran (72:22-23).These two verses clearly sum up our discussion regarding Men Doonellah and obeying the prophet. Please read them again:

Quran (72:22-23) Say:" No one can deliver me from Allah, nor should I find refuge except in Him unless a deliverance from Allah and His Messages. Anyone who disobeys Allah and His Messenger, for them is Hell: they shall dwell therein for ever."

Beautiful!! Isn`t it?!! Who can make himself such a humble in compare and in presence of his God?!! Look it again: 'indeed, i possess no power over you, either for harm or for guidance. ' (۲۱), can you hear his voice?!!

I have said in my last post that POSSISSION belongs to Allah. No need to repeat myself. Yes, I am hearing his voice which again confirms that whatever he proposes to us (for guidance) is not originated from himself but from Allah.

In this verse Quran tell us that Muhammad has the knowledge of unseen world?!! Or this is talking about one, or some, special news which God is telling him?

This proves that the prophet has the knowledge of any news of unseen world that God wills and whenever God wills.

And in the last day, may the first protest to you, would be Muhammad himself! Because you know the verse 18 and 20 of chapter 72 of Quran , and you continue to worship him during your daily pray , during your whispers with God, during your daily activities, when call someone for help in your heart, and during all of your times in mosques and call him as your hero, and after all of these , you say you are not worshiping him!!!!

I love the prophet and I follow him and obey him (ensha allah) through his messages, behavior and commands as I believe this is the best way God has set for us to be guided, alhamdolellah. So far I have presented my reasons. You accuse me of worshiping the prophet while I have not done or said so and Allah knows the heats better than anyone.

Quran says: why you change the commandment of God (for yourself not the others!) look delicately, Muhammad changes something without permission of God, and only for seeking the pleasant of his wives. To decide changing the law?!!!! Even for him?!and what you call this if it’s not disobeying God?!!!

Do not add something to Quran please. Quran does not say so. Was there a previous-made commandment to the prophet that the prophet disobeyed? Can it be proved from this verse of Quran? No. Quran (66:1) only shows that the prophet had decided to ban something and God willed it to be changed. This does not prove that the prophet knew this will of God and disobeyed.

Then you say God was pleased with him in these verses?!! Then why he ask his prophet if he is pleased?!!!

I did not say so. I stated that you can not simply generalize everything and come up with conclusion. Seeking to please a human being does not GENERALLY and NECESSARILY contradict pleasing God. Therefore, you can not conclude that the prophet must have known that he would not please God if he decided to please his wives.

Yes, and this is his repenting from his sin and God accepted and cleansed him again for his mission.  Thanks for explanation, realy good job.

By definition, since no disobeying is proved for prophet, neither repenting nor a sin can be proposed.

Thank you. 

Edited by myahya - 29 September 2009 at 7:13am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Moses Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2009 at 8:51am

[QUOTE=myahya]

…….
This verse does not disprove following the prophet. It proves, however, that the prophets were supported by angels and the spirit.

If following the prophet is following God, why we should talk about the prophet, we can stick to words of God. And if there are differences, means we should not follow that because is not following God.

Quran (2:118) and those who have no knowledge say: why doth not allah speak unto us, or some sign come unto us? even thus, as they now speak, spake those (who were) before them. their hearts are all alike. we have made clear the revelations (by spiritual talking=BAEIANA) for people who are sure. Again as you see he is capable to talk in their hearts to everybody who is sure

The meaning of this verse is exactly in opposite direction if what you want to say. This English translation has problem. “Bayyene” generally means any clear sign. The verse is saying that: Although “Bayyene”  (very clear Signs like miracles) are made for people (who become sure),  but those who have no knowledge say :" Why does Allah not speak to us? or why does any sign not come to us (directly)?" this is same as what the people said before (people of other prophets). Their hearts are alike.

Bayyeneh means revelation. Means making bright something for someone in any way, then we can`t create boundaries for the meaning and limit it to miracles by a definition based on human mind.

Now, please put your suggestion meaning for the word
مِن دُونِ
   and then you will see yourself!  Do you need more examples?!  If it`s not clear , it’s easy to explain more.

First of all, Quran (11:13) and (2:23) places what is revealed to the prophet in opposite category of Men Doone Allah. Then it asks people (who deny them or are not sure about them) to bring the same with help or witness which is not from Allah, if they can. Where does it show or prove that “following the prophet” is Men Doonellah?!!!

What is revealed to the prophet is not in category of Men Doone Allah. But human , prophet or other leaders , are Men Doone Allah, because they are not creator, they can`t do anything with their own ability or knowledge. Everything is good in prophet is from God and everything is bad in prophet is from himself. (4-79)

مَّا أَصَابَكَ مِنْ حَسَنَةٍ فَمِنَ اللّهِ وَمَا أَصَابَكَ مِن سَيِّئَةٍ فَمِن نَّفْسِكَ وَأَرْسَلْنَاكَ لِلنَّاسِ رَسُولًا وَكَفَى بِاللّهِ شَهِيدًا ﴿۷۹

whatever good reaches you, it is from allah, and whatever evil reaches you, it is from yourself. we have sent you (prophet muhammad) as a messenger to humanity. allah is sufficient for a witness.


Interesting is that Quran (9:16) also confirms and emphasizes what I am saying. It confirms that “following the prophet” does not fall in the meaning of Men Doone Allah. Let us see the translation:  “Do you think that you would be left to yourself while Allah does not know those among you who strive and take none for friends and protectors except Allah, His Messenger, and the Believers? And Allah is well-acquainted with all (that ye do).

أَمْ حَسِبْتُمْ أَن تُتْرَكُواْ وَلَمَّا يَعْلَمِ اللّهُ الَّذِينَ جَاهَدُواْ مِنكُمْ وَلَمْ يَتَّخِذُواْ مِن دُونِ اللّهِ وَلاَ رَسُولِهِ وَلاَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَلِيجَةً وَاللّهُ خَبِيرٌ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ ﴿۱۶

did you suppose that you would be left before allah has known those of you who fought and did not take a confidant other than allah, his messenger, and the believers? allah is aware of what you do.

Here Quran is talking about someone who fought for God, and did not take a confidant except God, his messenger, and his believers. Messenger is still Men Doone Allah, but taking him as a confidant is appropriate because he can save the secrets and help believers in the righteousness also the other believers are appropriate confidants. But if you tell us that this means messenger is not Men Doone Allah, then we should say “the believers” are not Men Doone Allah as well! Then who is Men Doone Allah?!!!

Why you escape from the meaning of this word?! And searching for witnesses from Quran to tell us that the meaning of this word is not the same as an Arabic word does?!


Quran (10:18) is again talking about worshiping not about following. Therefore, if one worships a prophet (or anything who is not God), then such an act is Men Doone Allah.

In some verses Quran says about worshiping somebody or something other than God and in some verses says about following somebody other than God.

But the Question is “why leaders try to tell people that they have to follow the prophet?” are they worry about following of words of God? Or they are worry about following of words of human which they try to use them for rule on other people?

God never say disobey prophet in what he said and somebody wrote them as Quran! Because Quran is not change able (as wrote in her) and you can use that up to the end. But God has not asked us to obey from anything had been written and which is from human (including stories which you believe in them) because they are change able.



At the first: say I am just a human like you “and “at the last is the reason: “don`t worship someone beside your God “, obviously there are people who do this and the message is for them, hopefully you are not among them.

There might be people who have done so or have such a tendency. Where did I talk about worshiping the prophet?!! The act of “worshiping a prophet” is Men Doonellah but the act of “following the prophet” is Men Ghebalellah (from God and God’s command, opposite of Men Doonellah). No prophet has told people to worship them, even Isa Massih (as).

Is this phrase “Men Ghebalellah” from Quran or somebody made it to complete the Quran?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 God did not use this phrase in Quran, he used Men Doone Alllah instead, because the meaning was not as the phrase: Men Ghebaleallah!

Let me please do the rest of our post in another time, actually its 2 am and I am tired now.

God bless you

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote peacemaker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2009 at 10:19am

Everyone,

Please follow the section and the forum guidelines and stick to the topic.
 
Peace
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Moses Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 October 2009 at 6:53am
 

Originally posted by peacemaker peacemaker wrote:

Everyone,

Please follow the section and the forum guidelines and stick to the topic.

 

Peace

agree, but conversion from Islam , from my view is conversion from hadith, stories and every thing they write and say this is following your prophet! For this I should tell about following the prophet. But if its not related, I ask to transfer these posts to another topic please.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Moses Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 October 2009 at 8:31am

Hi,

Don`t need any arguing about the message of this verse, I confirm the message by another verses which explain that for us for free! See:(2-108&109)

Quran (2:108 and 109) is again for people who do not “follow” the prophet. It is obvious because people started to ask the prophet to bring different things for them in a way that they simply prefer more. Such an asking was the same as what the people of Moses (as) asked him to do. You can review the verses where Quran explains what people asked Moses (as) to do which were against the will of God.

What does it have to do with “following” the prophet? Furthermore, are you saying that the above asking refers to any kind of asking? What if a human came to the prophet asking for a guidance towards God? Can you show that such an asking falls in the meaning of Quran(2:109) ?!

If some verses are especially for the same time and position in which they have revealed, they will be not useful anymore and this is against the holiness of Quran. Then these are useful every time and in every position if Quran is the words of God. If you make this verse limited in some positions and don`t accept that in other situations, you are not a completely believer in Quran.

Asking means “want” something from a human. People suppose to ask or want everything from their creator, not other created human, this is the message of these verses. Following the prophet if is not equal to following the Gods words, is mistake. And if that is following the words of God, it will not be more than words of God itself or less than that God told us in his words.

Guidance toward God can`t be split from words of God. The problem is, when somebody asks to guide, some of you talk to him behalf of the prophet and for this, you are teaching people your words not God words. As you see the problem is not prophet himself (he is a dear friend for God) the problem is following him in a time that he is not alive and can`t prevent us from the mistake in teaching or learning the words of God.



Very good , that sounds we are agree in this point, I said “he” means a human , cannot lead anybody even himself toward the heaven, but “his message” is different !

I did not say that the prophet’s body would lead people to heaven. Follow his message then, and do not try to depart between believers and him regarding loving him, following him and obeying him included in his message.

As I said, his message is not different from words of God. Using his words for personal and group`s benefits is possible, but using of words which he told and they wrote as the name of Quran is not change able. Believers suppose to be believers of God, not believers of prophet, as prophet said himself in the Quran and you say also that it`s truth.


………..

I love the prophet and I follow him and obey him (ensha allah) through his messages, behavior and commands as I believe this is the best way God has set for us to be guided, alhamdolellah. So far I have presented my reasons. You accuse me of worshiping the prophet while I have not done or said so and Allah knows the heats better than anyone.

Worshiping means love somebody as you love your creator (God) and talking about this love in yourself and to the other people. Then if you believe that Muhammad is holy , without any mistake and has powers of God with knowledge of unseen world , then you when you send blessings on prophet  you are really worshiping him, if you say “No” then send your blessings just like Quran says in 33-43

هُوَ الَّذِي يُصَلِّي عَلَيْكُمْ وَمَلَائِكَتُهُ لِيُخْرِجَكُم مِّنَ الظُّلُمَاتِ إِلَى النُّورِ وَكَانَ بِالْمُؤْمِنِينَ رَحِيمًا ﴿۴۳

He it is who sends his blessings on you, and (so do) his angels, that he may bring you forth out of utter darkness into the light; and he is merciful to the believers

 

 


Quran says: why you change the commandment of God (for yourself not the others!) look delicately, Muhammad changes something without permission of God, and only for seeking the pleasant of his wives. To decide changing the law?!!!! Even for him?!and what you call this if it’s not disobeying God?!!!

Do not add something to Quran please. Quran does not say so. Was there a previous-made commandment to the prophet that the prophet disobeyed? Can it be proved from this verse of Quran?

I did not add this chapter to Quran! This was the prophet himself! He told and somebody wrote that and we are now only reading them!

This is the same verse and 4 English translation, you can see yourself:

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ لِمَ تُحَرِّمُ مَا أَحَلَّ اللَّهُ لَكَ تَبْتَغِي مَرْضَاتَ أَزْوَاجِكَ وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ ﴿۱

QARIB: o prophet, why do you forbid that which allah has made lawful to you. do you seek to please your wives? ' allah is the forgiving, the most merciful.

SHAKIR: o prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and allah is forgiving, merciful

PICKTHAL: o prophet! why bannest thou that which allah hath made lawful for thee, seeking to please thy wives? and allah is forgiving, merciful.

YUSUFALI: o prophet! why holdest thou to be forbidden that which allah has made lawful to thee? thou seekest to please thy consorts. but allah is oft-forgiving, most merciful.

 

As you see all of them say the same thing: Allah has made something lawful and the prophet forbid that, and the reason is not serving God,  and is not seeking God`s please, it is to please his wives!

Talking about the others mistake is not beautiful and I don`t wanted. But here there is another aim, the aim and the message of this verse is warning us about making holly personality for the servant of God.

 

No. Quran (66:1) only shows that the prophet had decided to ban something and God willed it to be changed.

Disagree; at first it was lawful as Quran says. And then the prophet forbade that, if it was not lawful then how he could make it forbidden?!!!

 

………….

I did not say so. I stated that you can not simply generalize everything and come up with conclusion. Seeking to please a human being does not GENERALLY and NECESSARILY contradict pleasing God. Therefore, you can not conclude that the prophet must have known that he would not please God if he

decided to please his wives.

I did not generalize it!! If I want to do so I should say the prophet is a sinner!!!! And I don`t believe in such thing! But sin is sin, for prophet its more difficult because he has cleansed and living in presence of God to be in his service to send the message of God. He knows completely that he is not living for himself any more! he knows completely that his mission is more important than his worldly life, and he knows that his position is to be near to God for ever, then he should live in presence of God in every moments and in every seconds of his life , not only” Should”!, but he do this currently actually!

then we can`t trust on prophet himself, “himself” means prophet who is not the reality of message, prophet who is not permanently words of God, prophet who is sometimes himself! Prophet who is not our creator and he says himself is a human just like us.

But prophet in the most of time of his living time, was talking as the Allah`s tongue. Then you should follow him in his living time if you were there. But now, who is trustable to tell and reveal the laws behalf of him? Or narrations his commands and living styles for you? If you know him, really he is your prophet not Muhammad the prophet of Allah! Because he is who tell you that what the prophet said!

 if this person is one, he is your prophet, and if are more than one, they are your prophet!!

And any ways, he has not power to remove your affliction or transfer it. Because he is not your God!

17-56

قُلِ ادْعُواْ الَّذِينَ زَعَمْتُم مِّن دُونِهِ فَلاَ يَمْلِكُونَ كَشْفَ الضُّرِّ عَنكُمْ وَلاَ تَحْوِيلًا ﴿۵۶

QARIB:say: 'call to those whom you assert, other than him. They have neither the power to remove your affliction nor to transfer it. '




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote myahya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 October 2009 at 1:12am

Peacemaker, I also think that it would be much better if this discussion was in different thread with its own topic. I did not have idea that it might be a lengthy discussion.

Moses 

If following the prophet is following God, why we should talk about the prophet, we can stick to words of God. And if there are differences, means we should not follow that because is not following God.

If we want to stick to words of God we should notice that “following the prophet” is word of God because it is His clear command in Quran. Meanwhile, God tells us in Quran that the meaning of the words of God and practical practicing of His words could be taught by the prophet. In Quran, God introduces the prophet as the best teacher (of His words) and best example for us.

Bayyeneh means revelation. Means making bright something for someone in any way, then we can`t create boundaries for the meaning and limit it to miracles by a definition based on human mind.

I did not create boundaries for this word. It is “any clear sign” or “revelation”. The thing is that (2:118) is talking about Bayyeneh which has come to the prophet not to the heart of other people. Then people say why did it not come to them?!! And Quran blames them for asking so.

What is revealed to the prophet is not in category of Men Doone Allah. But human , prophet or other leaders , are Men Doone Allah, because they are not creator, they can`t do anything with their own ability or knowledge.

God has given them the required ability and knowledge for being followed. Taking the meaning of Men Doone Allah as “not being Allah” does not necessitate or prove that we should not follow them. Based on your argument, Quran is also Men Doone Allah because obviously Quran is not Allah and is Men Doone Allah. Why do you use the verses of Quran since they are Men Doone Allah?!!

Everything is good in prophet is from God and everything is bad in prophet is from himself. (4-79)

Unfortunately there is a misleading in this translation of (4:79). The verse never proves that anything is bad in the prophet. The translation is "whatever from bad things that crosses you (collides with you)". It does not say "whatever which is bad in you". These two meanings are totally different.

Why you escape from the meaning of this word?! And searching for witnesses from Quran to tell us that the meaning of this word is not the same as an Arabic word does?!

As I asked before, why do you follow Quran when it is not Allah? I am not escaping. You see it becomes obviously meaningless if you want to apply meaning of this word as “not being Allah” everywhere. If you want to stick to this meaning that “Do not get help from anything who is not Allah” then why do you go to doctor if you feel you are sick? A doctor is Men Doone Allah if you use such a definition.

But the Question is “why leaders try to tell people that they have to follow the prophet?” are they worry about following of words of God? Or they are worry about following of words of human which they try to use them for rule on other people?

They are worry about following of words of God because if one does not follow the prophet they violate the word of God which clearly states many times to follow the prophet. Here it seems you would like to escape from this clear commandment of God in His words and you are making boundaries for it without an acceptable reason. This is itself interpreting the Quran Men Doone Allah and based on self desires.

Is this phrase “Men Ghebalellah” from Quran or somebody made it to complete the Quran?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In Quran it is “Menallah” or “Men ladonellah” which means “from God’s side”.

Quran (4:75) And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"

If some verses are especially for the same time and position in which they have revealed, they will be not useful anymore and this is against the holiness of Quran.

I did not say that these verses (2:108,109) are only referring to the time when the prophet was alive. It is our responsibility to take out the message of these verses for our today life. The message I understand is here:

“Do not interact with the prophet based on your own desires. Follow the prophets instead of asking what you prefer more. In other words, do not order what you desire, instead be submitted and follow what they tell you to do.”

As you see the problem is not prophet himself (he is a dear friend for God) the problem is following him in a time that he is not alive and can`t prevent us from the mistake in teaching or learning the words of God.

First, you are suggesting that many verses of Quran only refers to the time when the prophet was alive. But it is against the holiness of Quran as you said previously.

Second, this is not a problem. We have to do our best by doing serious research to find the truth in history. Once a narration from the prophet is proved to be true, we will use it for both understanding and practicing. If we unconditionally put all narrations and Sunnah of the prophet away and stick to Quran, then we have to interpret only based on our own understanding which of course does not prevent us from mistakes. The difference is that in the first case we have done our responsibility and Allah knows it and would guide us, but in the second case we have escaped from the responsibility that Quran put on our shoulders. One day we will be asked about it.

As I said, his message is not different from words of God. Using his words for personal and group`s benefits is possible, but using of words which he told and they wrote as the name of Quran is not change able.

The facts that the prophet has told people regarding guidance and asked people to do are not changeable. By “following the prophet” I do not mean to follow what WE think we should follow. I mean to follow what the prophet has really told us to do.

Believers suppose to be believers of God, not believers of prophet, as prophet said himself in the Quran and you say also that it`s truth.

According to Quran the believers are supposed to believe in God and the prophet. See for example:

Quran (4:136) O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messenger, and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray.

Worshiping means love somebody as you love your creator (God)

The love in creator should be the first and strongest love of a believer.

As you see all of them say the same thing: Allah has made something lawful and the prophet forbid that, and the reason is not serving God,  and is not seeking God`s please, it is to please his wives!

It seems you do not know Allah has commanded in Quran that everyone should take full care of their partner and satisfy them. Considering this law, the prophet had been already obeying God when he decided to satisfy his wives. Therefore, the verse (66:1) by no means shows that the prophet disobeyed God. Disobeying can only be proved when one knows what the will of God is but intentionally disobeys for the sake of any other reason.

But here there is another aim, the aim and the message of this verse is warning us about making holly personality for the servant of God.

The prophet is already proved to be holy as soon as it was proved that he is a prophet. But in my opinion, one of the aims of this verse and its following verses is to warn us about making holy personality for the wives of the prophet.

Quran seriously commands to love the prophet, to follow him, to obey him and to take him as the best example. This is not something that one can deny.



Edited by myahya - 05 October 2009 at 1:24am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Moses Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 October 2009 at 10:14am

Originally posted by myahya myahya wrote:

If we want to stick to words of God we should notice that “following the prophet” is word of God because it is His clear command in Quran. Meanwhile, God tells us in Quran that the meaning of the words of God and practical practicing of His words could be taught by the prophet. In Quran, God introduces the prophet as the best teacher (of His words) and best example for us.

Hi,

If we are really following of the prophet, we should be just like him at least in worshiping God. Do you believe that Muhammad believe in something beside Quran?! And do you believe that he was Sonni, or Shiee or in other groups?!! Do you believe that Muhammad said “Hi” to himself several times a day?!! Or you heard from narrators that he told you should be like this?

The problem is: you trust in someone who is not God or his prophet, you trust in narrators and in some people who they recommend the narrators to you. And unfortunately in other groups, they have the other narrators that they believe in them! As you see again the origin of these problems is: Muhammad has passed away!! God could save him up to the end, but did not do this because of your exam!!! You think you have not exam?!!  And now examiner is here and can see all of the followers of his messenger. All of them say believe that should be the follower of Prophet (just like the other religions) , but can you see Muslims as a unique nation?!! NO…. you are not one nation who used to call as “Muslims” anymore! now you are different sort of Muslims, you have one prophet and one God, but different “Narrators” and story tellers!! You trapped in your opinions and can`t fix that because Satan robbed from your mind these words:

6-159

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ فَرَّقُواْ دِينَهُمْ وَكَانُواْ شِيَعًا لَّسْتَ مِنْهُمْ فِي شَيْءٍ إِنَّمَا أَمْرُهُمْ إِلَى اللّهِ ثُمَّ يُنَبِّئُهُم بِمَا كَانُواْ يَفْعَلُونَ ﴿۱۵۹

QARIB: you have nothing to do with those who have made divisions in their religion and become sects. Their affair is with Allah and he will inform them of what they have done.

And 30-32

Those who split up their religion, and become (mere) sects,- each party rejoicing in that which is with itself!  

 

مِنَ الَّذِينَ فَرَّقُوا دِينَهُمْ وَكَانُوا شِيَعًا كُلُّ حِزْبٍ بِمَا لَدَيْهِمْ فَرِحُونَ ﴿۳۲

 

Originally posted by myahya myahya wrote:

God has given them the required ability and knowledge for being followed. Taking the meaning of Men Doone Allah as “not being Allah” does not necessitate or prove that we should not follow them. Based on your argument, Quran is also Men Doone Allah because obviously Quran is not Allah and is Men Doone Allah. Why do you use the verses of Quran since they are Men Doone Allah?!!

Quran is not created, Quran is revealed. Because it was from the first and will be up to the end.  Because it is not anything unless God. I believe that words of God are not different from God himself, if you believe that word of God is created, then tell me about this: 16-40

For to anything which we have willed, we but say the word, "be", and it is.  

 

إِنَّمَا قَوْلُنَا لِشَيْءٍ إِذَا أَرَدْنَاهُ أَن نَّقُولَ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ ﴿۴۰

As you see creation is doing by use of word. Then you can`t say word is not God! if word is not God then something except God is his partner in creation!!! We don`t believe it , do we?

for this reason “the word of God” refer to the word which was from the first and by him everything has been created as you can read it at the first verses of John gospel.

Originally posted by myahya myahya wrote:

Unfortunately there is a misleading in this translation of (4:79). The verse never proves that anything is bad in the prophet. The translation is "whatever from bad things that crosses you (collides with you)". It does not say "whatever which is bad in you". These two meanings are totally different.

This is not important if bad is crosses the prophet or remain in him, the important thing is, this is from him, from Muhammad himself. This is his confess about his reality as a man! I believe that he is lovely mostly because of his humble.  Obviously he has not uptake any bad things because he is one of the best friends of God and living in his home now (as I believe and Quran says), but you Muslims as if make him more than a human when I see you believe in his holiness from the first!

Originally posted by myahya myahya wrote:

As I asked before, why do you follow Quran when it is not Allah? I am not escaping. You see it becomes obviously meaningless if you want to apply meaning of this word as “not being Allah” everywhere. If you want to stick to this meaning that “Do not get help from anything who is not Allah” then why do you go to doctor if you feel you are sick? A doctor is Men Doone Allah if you use such a definition.

I don`t believe in Doctor, I believe to God who will let him know about my problem. But you believe and trust on people who narrate something from 1400 years ago and now are dead!

Originally posted by mousa and myahya mousa and myahya wrote:

But the Question is “why leaders try to tell people that they have to follow the prophet?” are they worry about following of words of God? Or they are worry about following of words of human which they try to use them for rule on other people?

They are worry about following of words of God because if one does not follow the prophet they violate the word of God which clearly states many times to follow the prophet. Here it seems you would like to escape from this clear commandment of God in His words and you are making boundaries for it without an acceptable reason. This is itself interpreting the Quran Men Doone Allah and based on self desires.

I love words of Quran, how can I escape of them?!

Following of Prophet is essential and necessary for all of people. The leader who wants this is not bad, but some of them are just like thieves in the light! God knows, I don`t like this part of discussion actually. let me say sorry if you believe I went more than God`s will in this part, anyway I am a sinner as the other people. Leave it to God please, he will fix my problem sure!

 

Originally posted by myahya myahya wrote:

In Quran it is “Menallah” or “Men ladonellah” which means “from God’s side”.

Quran (4:75) And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"

Then “men Ghebale llah” is not in Quran , but Mendunallah is in Quran. And if it was with the same meaning of “Menallah’ or “Men ladonellah” God would not say “Doon” which means “below” because its different to “Laddon” which means “completely the same” or “Men” which means “from” isn’t it?!

I will continue in other day

God bless you

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote myahya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 November 2009 at 4:46am

Moses:

And do you believe that he was Sonni, or Shiee or in other groups?!!

The prophet was the main reference himself. Through Quran and his own sayings and sunnah, by God’s will and permission, he commanded people to follow him. The labels (sonni, shiee ,…) were made after his death on the subject of following which is a must. The problem is that some Muslims did not follow the prophet (from beginning till today) even though they knew and know how to do it, and some (may be for example only-Quran Muslims) try to erase the question instead of finding the true answer (while it is possible to find the true answer).

Do you believe that Muhammad said “Hi” to himself several times a day?!!

Allah and angels send salaams to the prophet and we are also commanded to do so. It is in Quran.

The problem is: you trust in someone who is not God or his prophet, you trust in narrators and in some people who they recommend the narrators to you. And unfortunately in other groups, they have the other narrators that they believe in them!

I do not trust on narrators unconditionally. I say ALL narrations (regardless of labels and sects in Islam) are to be investigated seriously and academically. First, from scientific point of view, it is possible to determine the level of authenticity of a historical narration. Second, with the light of Quran, the level of authenticity and the help of intellect, experts can distinguish between corrupted/fabricated narrations and factual ones.

If one does not pay attention to a series of narrations (despite of numerous numbers of historical evidences) for the sake of one narrator or one collection or one specific book, then you are right. However, as I said, escaping from the question is not the solution.

God could save him up to the end, but did not do this because of your exam!!! You think you have not exam?!!

Let me highlight the difference between my and your belief about the criterion of this exam.

I say that the exam was (and is) this:  Who really follows the prophet (an accurate following) after his death.

You say that the exam was (and is) this: Who forgets about following the prophet after his death.

In spite of very clear unconditional verses of Quran which commands us to follow the prophet and numerous historical narrations (confirmed to be authentic), you are inviting me to refuse all of them and follow what you are thinking of the criterion of this exam. Can you see what you are expecting others to do?

All of them say believe that should be the follower of Prophet (just like the other religions) , but can you see Muslims as a unique nation?!! NO…. you are not one nation who used to call as “Muslims” anymore! now you are different sort of Muslims, you have one prophet and one God, but different “Narrators” and story tellers!! You trapped in your opinions and can`t fix that because Satan robbed from your mind these words:

The split does not have anything to do with true narrations because true narrations reflect the historical facts. The split originated from the fact that some people did not follow the prophet accurately after his death.

Furthermore, if any individual Muslim was an only-Quran Muslim, then you would have different opinions in every aspect of Islam per individual Muslim, resulting in diversity as large as the number of verses of Quran times the population of Muslims in the world.

About Quran (6:159) and (30:32), in my opinion, those who has refused to follow the prophet after his death are those who split the religion.

Quran is not created, Quran is revealed. Because it was from the first and will be up to the end.  

I disagree. Quran is both created and revealed. How and in what form it was from the first. Bring evidence.

Because it is not anything unless God.

Do you believe that Quran revealed itself and Quran created you?!!!

I believe that words of God are not different from God himself

Why do you call them words of God then? Call them God and worship them.

You do not differ between God and His words!!! If you believe so you must also believe that Isa Masih (as) is God because Quran clearly says that he was a word of God:

Quran (3:45) Behold! the angels said:" O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honor in this world and the Hereafter and of the company of those nearest to Allah."

if you believe that word of God is created, then tell me about this: 16-40. As you see creation is doing by use of word.

Quran (16:40) does not prove that word of God is creator. From one side it shows that the act of creation by God can be the act of telling “be” like the creation of Isa Masih (as). Who is the subject here? The subject is not the word but God who TELLS the word “be“. From the other side, Quran shows us that a word of God (e.g. Isa Masih(as)) can be created by Him by telling the word “be” (Quran(3:59)).

for this reason “the word of God” refer to the word which was from the first and by him everything has been created as you can read it at the first verses of John gospel.

Neither Quran (16:40) nor first verses of John gospel are reasons for such a wrong claim. Some Christians have made the same mistake speculating that Isa Masih (as) must be God; only a wrong guess!!

This is not important if bad is crosses the prophet or remain in him, the important thing is, this is from him, from Muhammad himself.

When a bad thing crosses the prophet it is proved to be from outside not originated from inside, ponder on the requirement of crossing and colliding please. Let us also read the verses before this verse. They are about Muslims who complain about Jahad and participating in wars. They said it was from God if there were good things crossing them and from the prophet if there were bad things crossing them.  Then God blames them and said that all of them are from Allah:

Quran (4:78) " Wherever ye are, death will find you out, even if ye are in towers built up strong and high!" If some good befalls them, they say," This is from Allah".; but if evil, they say," This is from thee"( O Prophet ). Say:" All things are from Allah." But what hath come to these people, that they fail to understand a single fact?

History says that the prophet was also badly injured in wars and they eventually lost a war (Ohod Jahad) because some did not obey the prophet completely. The issue of obeying the prophet is absolutely confirmed when you read the next verse:

Quran (4:80) One who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah. But if any turn away, We have not sent thee to watch over them.

You see? Even in these verses the issue of following and obeying the prophet is commanded. Ponder please.

you Muslims as if make him more than a human when I see you believe in his holiness from the first!

Holiness does not contradict his humanity!! The prophets are both human and holy.

I don`t believe in Doctor, I believe to God who will let him know about my problem.

This is not Mendoonellah because it is the will of Allah and is supported by Allah, and you perform it by His permission. That is why following the prophet is not Mendoonellah.

But you believe and trust on people who narrate something from 1400 years ago and now are dead!

As I said before, I disagree that every individual Muslim should rely on all narrations unconditionally.  However, denying all narrations is a worse fault. The true narrations are distinguishable. Otherwise, history is not admired at all and no historian scientist (who cites past studies) exists unless they are st**id!!!

Then “men Ghebale llah” is not in Quran , but Mendunallah is in Quran. And if it was with the same meaning of “Menallah’ or “Men ladonellah” God would not say “Doon” which means “below” because its different to “Laddon” which means “completely the same” or “Men” which means “from” isn’t it?!

You can replace MenGhebalellah with either Menallaah or Menladonellah in my past discussion.


Edited by myahya - 02 November 2009 at 4:53am
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