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Tax / Jizyah

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Hayfa View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2009 at 9:44am
Since they do not believe in Islam, they are not at all obliged to follow its tenets. Which is why, the ONLY taxes they pay are either Jizyah (which is in turn used ON THEIR OWN welfare & protection) . . . OR anyother secular form of tax, which the government may levy (Which btw, Muslims have to pay as well. Since secular taxes are levied on everyone regardless of religion) I am not convinced that muslims pay all the correct amount of governemnt taxes, especially in Pakistan where many try to evade this form of tax.

Martha, this is a separate issue from whether taxes are levied. I would guess many people all over the world try to avoid taxes.. this is separate then the requirements. All people in US or Britain or many places, pay  taxes on items, transactions etc.
 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Natassia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2009 at 10:45am
It looks like the moderators won't even let me post from the Tafsir Ibn Kathir or Tafsir Ibn Abbas...but I'm going to try again.
 
 
From the Tafsir Ibn Kathir:
 
Quran 9:29 Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace

Allah said, until they pay the Jizyah, if they do not choose to embrace Islam, with willing submission, in defeat and subservience, and feel themselves subdued, disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said, "Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley." This is why the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace.

 
Tanw�r al-Miqb�s min Tafs�r Ibn �Abb�s

Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture the Jews and Christians as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day nor in the bliss of Paradise, and forbid not in the Torah that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth do not submit themselves to Allah through confession of Allah's divine Oneness, until they pay the tribute readily standing: from hand to hand, being brought low abased.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2009 at 10:48am
Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

Since they do not believe in Islam, they are not at all obliged to follow its tenets. Which is why, the ONLY taxes they pay are either Jizyah (which is in turn used ON THEIR OWN welfare & protection) . . . OR anyother secular form of tax, which the government may levy (Which btw, Muslims have to pay as well. Since secular taxes are levied on everyone regardless of religion) I am not convinced that muslims pay all the correct amount of governemnt taxes, especially in Pakistan where many try to evade this form of tax.

Martha, this is a separate issue from whether taxes are levied. I would guess many people all over the world try to avoid taxes.. this is separate then the requirements. All people in US or Britain or many places, pay  taxes on items, transactions etc.
 

 
Salaam Hayfa,
 
Chrysalis noted that all muslims have to pay the government taxes, and I picked up on it thats all. It is true that people everywhere will avoid to pay them but doesn't mean it is right to do so. To justify none payment of their own tax because others don't is a cop out and morally we have a duty, especially as muslims, to do so. Well, that would make sense to me anyway.
 
some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2009 at 7:31pm
yes but I think that you are bringing up a separate issue. She was bringing up that in addition to zakat and other donations required by Islam, Muslims also pay taxes levied against all people.


When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2009 at 8:06am
Originally posted by martha martha wrote:

This one needs to be explained more to me.  I researched it, but I do nt understand.
h


I'm surprised you are referring to wikiIslam Martha. I clicked the link - the tone of that site alone leaks with bias!

An example - 'nonmuslims are forced to pay jizyah' . . . arent all taxpayers in a way 'forced' to pay Tax? if they dont, are they not prosecuted? So why twist things?

Even wi ki -I s lam begrudgingly mentions that Jizyah is in turn for Legal protection/security.

I dont know why/what you didnt understand... the part about Muslims paying more? Thought it was clear enough:

Quote
How? Under complusory financial obligations : Muslims HAVE TO (by law) pay Zakat, Ushr, Fitrana. The percentage/amount depends on the amount of wealth the muslim owns. So they end up contributing more to the social welfare fund. - Nonmuslims BY LAW, dont have to pay any of it.



Quote I thought zakat was the same 2.5% for ALL after a certain income had been reached which actually is a fair way for all.

Correct. Thankyou for the clarification/correction.

Quote Yes, this is clear enough. But just to explain that Christians make voluntary contributions at their churches, so it's not like they are lacking withholding money. Churches also give food, clothing etc to the needy [/Quote

Correct. Not to undermine Christian charity - they are quiet good at it. I'm just saying that Muslims have to by law, make compulsory contributions as well as voluntary ones. Christians are really not required to make any complusory contRibutions. Giving food/clothing etc is good. Everybody does that. Where Muslims differ is that they have to make periodic payments/charity. The Islamic economic system ensures that EVERY Muslim contribute in a wholesome, all encompassing manner. (which includes, food, clothing, money etc)

Quote In the Old Testament it is clear about 10% tithing, which was obligatory and some Christian religions still practice this today.
Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God�s house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the [ unto thee. ]Leviticus 27:30 And all the [ of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, [
1 And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth 32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the
 
33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.

34 These are the commandments, which the <SPAN =smallcaps]Lord</SPAN] commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.


I am sure other people make charity too. No arguments there.

However - there is a major difference, because there is no such thing as a Christian Economic System, which enforces such laws. - even if one speaks theoratically. It is not enforced by any country, or people. Christians themselves dont follow it because most of them like to think the old testament is for the children of israel - i.e. the Jews, and not for them.

The Zakat system is more enforced/practised around the world, and implemented, than the tithing system of the testament. I dont even know if Jews practise it today.


Quote I am not convinced that muslims pay all the correct amount of governemnt taxes, especially in Pakistan where many try to evade this form of tax.


Hayfa nicely explained this already. Also, I dont know how this proves that Jizyah is bad. Tax evaders exist everywhere.

[Quote] Me: Nonmuslim problems with Jizyah are again a simple, stereotypical result of ignorance towards Islam - and illogical hatred/fear.

Martha: Perhaps it can be explained in more detail so I can understand the above comments. Many thanks.


I mean - some people simply have a problem with Islamic tenets EVEN if they are clearly not bad, and are actually benefitting the society as a whole. They will automatically assume - oh, it must be bad. Reason-bieng, thier lack of knowledge about Islam. And preconcieved notions.

They will not say/think, Hey, we as nonmuslims dont have to partake in many of the extra financial obligations that fellow muslim citizens have to...we just pay Jizya - in RETURN for legal/physical protection & welfare for our own ppl. . . . they will turn a blind eye to all that and say: unfairr! we are bieng taxed because we are non-muslims!



Edited by icforumadmin - 03 August 2009 at 12:27am
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Natassia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Natassia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 August 2009 at 4:43pm
Originally posted by Chrysalis Chrysalis wrote:


An example - 'nonmuslims are forced to pay jizyah' . . . arent all taxpayers in a way 'forced' to pay Tax? if they dont, are they not prosecuted? So why twist things?
 
But these are taxes levied upon a people simply for their faith.  They are not permitted to bear arms, form militias, and protect themselves.  No, what happens is the Islamic ruling authority acts like a mafia syndicate and forces the people of the Book to pay for "protection."
 
For those bringing up the required tithing amounts in the Torah--this was mandatory for the Israelites.  It was not something Gentiles were beholden to...since Gentiles were not under the covenant of circumcision.  Gentiles are considered to be beholden to the Noahide laws.
 
Whether some Christian churches choose to encourage their congregations to pay a 10% tithe or not is up to them; however, it is not mandatory and no one is punished for not doing it.

If the zakat system truly was being enforced and put into practice, then why are so many Islamic countries in poverty (other than the ones simply dripping with oil, of course)?

Jizyah is bad because of WHY it is levied.  It is a prejudicial tax levied upon a second-class.  Didn't you read what I posted from the Tafsir Ibn Kathir?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saladin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 2:25am
 

Chapter 9, verse 29 of the Qur'an reads:

"Fight those of the People of the Book who do not [truly] believe in God and the Last Day, who do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden, who do not obey the rule of justice, until they pay the tax and agree to submit."

It's important to note that the Arabic word that is translated to tax is "jizya", which means 'payment in return'.  Muslims pay what is called Zakah, which every adult that is mentally stable, and financially able is required to pay to certain groups of people as outlined in the Qur'an chapter 9 verse 60:

"Alms are meant only for the poor, the needy, those who administer them, those whose hearts need winning over, to free slaves and help those in debt, for God's cause, and for travelers in need.  This is ordained by God; God is all knowing and wise."

People of the Book living in Muslim territories were required to pay jizya.  As stated above, jizya means 'payment in return'.  What they're getting in return is protection by the Muslim state along with all the benefits and exemptions from military service. They were also exempt from paying the Muslim tax (zakah).  This jizya tax was only required of able-bodied men that have attained puberty, and exempted monks.  This tax was ridiculously low (one dinar per year.)

So basically it was a situation where the state protected the Jews and Christians, gave them all the benefits, didn't make them risk their lives as the Muslims did, and didn't require them to pay the zakah tax, which is 2.5% of total savings, jewelry and property at the end of the year.  Three quick points:

1.  If a Muslim country came under attack , Muslims were required to defend it.  Christians and Jews didn't need to ever raise a sword, but were still protected because their payment of jizya earned them the protection of the Muslims.

2.  While Muslims were required to pay 2.5% of their savings, jewelry, and property, Christians and Jews were not required to pay jizya on property, livestock, crops or produce, and only paid at all if they could afford it.  Who do you think has the more difficult burden? 

3.  It comes down to this.  Muslims pay the higher Zakah tax and are required to defend their country (including Jews and Christians.)  Jews and Christians paid a lower tax and didn't need to ever fight.

So the jizya tax wasn't a penalty or meant as punishment, it was a tax that helped run the state.  If we refuse to pay taxes in the U.S., we end up in prison.  The argument that everyone has to pay the same tax could be made, but again, the tax on Christians and Jew was low, and not required of those that couldn't afford it.  And everyone was taxed.  Muslims with any decent or semi-decent amount of savings were required to pay much more than Christians and Jews.  Some countries today execute tax evaders (China).  How can Christians and Jews demand all the rights of Muslims, plus protection without ever needed to step into a battlefield for nothing in return, while Muslims that do fight to defend the country, including Christians and Jews are required to pay zakah, which in most cases is much higher than jizya anyway?

The Romans at the time levied high taxes trying to support their military conquests.  The following is from:  http://www.crystalinks.com/romanempire7.html

"There is no simple explanation for the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, but several interconnected elements provide some answers. The demands of the military and the growing bureaucracy forced the government to seek more income. When the elite avoided taxes, the burden fell on the peasantry, who had barely enough to feed themselves and no surplus to pay taxes. When farmers fled the land, incomes declined still further and manpower shortages forced the military to hire German mercenaries."

Unlike the Roman Government, the Muslim states protected the poor, women, children, and monks while exempting them from having to pay the jizya tax.  Christian and Jews were also given equal rights, and allowed to practice their religion.  Also, they were allowed to build houses of worship, and their monks were tax exempt.  That is tolerance. 

The following comes from Wikipedia:     

Under Caliph Umar the Zoroastrian Persians were given People of the Book status, and jizya was levied on them. Christian Arab tribes in the north of the Arabian Peninsula refused to pay jizya, but agreed to pay double the amount, and calling it sadaqa, a word meaning "alms" or "charity". According to Yusuf al-Qaradawi the name change was done for the benefit of the Christian tribesmen, "out of consideration for their feelings".[11] Fred Donner, however, in The Early Islamic Conquests, states that the difference between sadaqa and jizya is that the former was levied on nomads, whereas the latter was levied on settled non-Muslims. Donner sees sadaqa as being indicative of the lower status of nomadic tribes, so much so that that Christian tribesmen preferred to pay the jizya. Jabala b. al-Ayham of the B. Ghassan is reported asked Umar "Will you levy sadaqa from me as you would from the [ordinary] bedouin (al-'arab)?" Umar acceded to collecting jizya from him instead, as he did from other Christians.[12]

Sir Thomas Arnold, an early 20th century orientalist, gives an example of a Christian Arab tribe which avoided paying the jizya altogether by fighting alongside Muslim armies "such was the case with the tribe of al-Jurajimah, a Christian tribe in the neighborhood of Antioch, who made peace with the Muslims, promising to be their allies and fight on their side in battle, on condition that they should not be called upon to pay jizya and should receive their proper share of the booty".[13]

In his message to the people of Al-Hirah, Khalid bin Walid is recorded as saying (in reference to the jizya), "When a person is too old to work or suffers a handicap, or when he falls into poverty, he is free from the dues of the poll tax; his sustenance is provided by the Muslim Exchequer."[14] A letter attributed to Khalid bin Walid said that "This is a letter of Khalid ibn al-Waleed to Saluba ibn Nastuna and his people; I agreed with you on al-jezyah and protection. As long as we protect you we have the right in al-jezyah, otherwise we have none.�[15]

According to Muslim accounts of Umar, in his time some payers of the jizya were compensated if they had not been cared for properly. The accounts vary, but describe his meeting an old Jew begging, and assisting him; according to one version:

Umar said to him, "Old man! We have not done justice to you. In your youth we realized Jizyah from you and have left you to fend for yourself in your old age". Holding him by the hand, he led him to his own house, and preparing food with his own hands fed him and issued orders to the treasurer of the Bait-al-mal that that old man and all others like him, should be regularly doled out a daily allowance which should suffice for them and their dependents.[16]

If Jizya is unfair on anyone, it would be the Muslims.  They were, after all, required to pay higher taxes, and protect those that paid Jizya.  Still, you never hear them complain, because that is what God ordered.

'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 August 2009 at 6:23am
Natassia: do you happen to pay taxes??  See what happens when if you don't..  lol
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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