IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Interfaith Dialogue
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Tax / Jizyah  What is Islam What is Islam  Donate Donate
  FAQ FAQ  Quran Search Quran Search  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Tax / Jizyah

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 7>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
Hayfa View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Female
Joined: 07 June 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2368
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 August 2009 at 9:01am
Sign,

I was reading a really good book called "The Lies They Taught you in School."

One point was that rich folks opposed the Vietnam War. When they were the LAST to oppose the war. It was not them being drafted and sent to kill people  and die for an unclear reason.

I guess since the poor pay the taxes they get drafted first. Many of  them were not able to run to college and hide.
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
Back to Top
Sign*Reader View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 November 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 3352
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sign*Reader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2009 at 11:53pm
I am just wondering why is Jizyah a matter of concern when the Khalafa is no more and most Muslim lands are under EU/US boots?
The world has moved on and let's find a country that has the standing to do Jizyah levy first!

Btw the talk of taxes the rich American kids don't go to fight America's wars but look what their parents end up paying...1.5% of top earning families paid more than 50% of the taxes...

How about this killer Jizyah on the rich in the US and Obama is asking to raise it even higher...At least the moneyed folks of the time had draft killed after the Vietnam fiasco...remember then the smart draft dodger Clinton who ended up becoming the PrezWink after all....
This is reality to talk about than centuries old civil defense tax(Jizyah) in place of executions of the enemy's males like the Spain/US did to the Moors & Indians or sending them to the concentration camps like the Japanese during WWII...



Edited by Sign*Reader - 10 August 2009 at 9:32am
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
Back to Top
Sign*Reader View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 November 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 3352
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sign*Reader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2009 at 11:29pm
Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

Since they do not believe in Islam, they are not at all obliged to follow its tenets. Which is why, the ONLY taxes they pay are either Jizyah (which is in turn used ON THEIR OWN welfare & protection) . . . OR anyother secular form of tax, which the government may levy (Which btw, Muslims have to pay as well. Since secular taxes are levied on everyone regardless of religion) I am not convinced that muslims pay all the correct amount of governemnt taxes, especially in Pakistan where many try to evade this form of tax.

Martha, this is a separate issue from whether taxes are levied. I would guess many people all over the world try to avoid taxes.. this is separate then the requirements. All people in US or Britain or many places, pay  taxes on items, transactions etc.
 


Martha: Please don't consider Pakistan as an ideal till it is free from the neo colonial conditions, where a thief has been installed as the Prez,,,
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
Back to Top
Natassia View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 16 July 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 177
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Natassia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2009 at 8:27pm
@ Chrysalis
 
You wrote: I'm responding to this despite the fact that members pointed out this is off-topic. This should have been pointed out when Natassia brought up Jizyah in the first place. And well, thats how internet 'threads' work.

I didn't bring up jizyah in order to discuss Islamic tax code. If you notice, I was bringing up forced conversions by threat of execution or a jizyah tax. A Muslim then posted a response regarding bewilderment at non-Muslim dislike for the jizyah and the thread went from there. I was certainly not trying to divert the topic by any means.

You wrote: I'm sorry this just doesn't make sense. I dont think ANY government allows ANY segment of its public to form small militias, and take up arms. That does not make a stable/peaceful society.

FYI "Taking up arms" does not mean simply mean owning a gun - it means to 'wage war', "prepare to fight" etc.
So there is a big diff b/w just owning a weapon/gun/sword versus 'taking up arms'.

EVEN MUSLIM individuals will be hindered by the govt from forming small militias of thier own, and 'taking up arms'
on thier own, without any formal warfare .

Flip the coin. Do you think ANY non-muslim govt would allow muslims to 'take up arms' on thier soil? would they
allow militias to be formed? No sensible govt/authority would allow that.

Actually, they've been doing it on U.S. soil for quite some time. There are Muslim groups who get together and practice organized weapons tactics on private land in America. I'm surprised you are unaware of this fact.

I suppose you've never heard of the Bill of Rights?

Amendment II

A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

You wrote: The 'taking up arms' rule is a standard for all.

As for 'dont allow nonmuslims to protect themselves' - thats baloney. Under Shariah, a nonmuslim has as much right to individually defend him/herself from danger, as a muslim. They have the legal right to go to court, and sue a muslim for any harm.

They are just not allowed to 'take up arms' against fellow citizens or revolt against the givernment, or side/fight for the enemy nations of thier govt. Something which was VERY COMMON in older times, hence this law was put into place. The nonmuslims, during times of war, would side with the other nonmuslim armies against the ruling muslim govt.

This rule does not apply to weapons that are used for safety/personal defence/hunting etc.

At what point did Muhammad make it mandatory that a court-of-law determine if someone may be executed? Or are you simply reinterpreting laws from 1400 years ago and trying to apply it to modern times and modern standards? If I recall, Muhammad never used a court system for Ka'b al-Ashraf.

I had a hard time finding an Islamic website that would post Ibn Timiyya's, Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyya's or Imam al-Shafii's statements regarding penalties if a Muslim murders a non-Muslim.  F.A. Klein reiterates their statements, however, when he writes in his book The religion of Isl�m: A Muslim is not to be killed for an unbeliever.
 
I did come across this from the Tafsir al-Jalalayn for Quran 4:92:
 
It is not for a believer to slay a believer, in other words, no such slaying should result at his hands, except by mistake, killing him by mistake, unintentionally. He who slays a believer by mistake, when he meant to strike some other thing, as in the case of hunting or [shooting at] trees, but then happens to strike him with what in most cases would not kill, then let him set free, let him emancipate, a believing slave (raqaba denotes nasama, �a person�), an obligation on him, and blood-money is to be submitted, to be paid, to his family, that is, the slain person�s inheritors, unless they remit it as a charity, to him by waiving [their claim to] it. In the Sunna this [blood-money] is explained as being equivalent to one hundred camels: twenty pregnant, twenty female sucklings, twenty male sucklings, twenty mature ones and twenty young ones [not more than five years old]; and [the Sunna stipulates] that it is incumbent upon the killer�s clan, namely, his paternal relations [and not other relatives]. They share this [burden of the blood-money] over three years; the rich among them pays half a dinar, while the one of moderate means [pays] a quarter of a dinar each year; if they still cannot meet this, then it can be taken from the treasury, and if this is not possible, then from the killer himself. If he, the slain, belongs to a people at enmity, at war, with you and is a believer, then the setting free of a believing slave, is incumbent upon the slayer, as a redemption, but no bloodmoney is to be paid to his family, since they are at war [with you]. If he, the slain, belongs to a people between whom and you there is a covenant, a treaty, as is the case with the Protected People (ahl al-dhimma), then the blood-money, for him, must be paid to his family, and it constitutes a third of the blood-money for a believer, if the slain be a Jew or a Christian, and two thirds of a tenth of it, if he be a Magian; and the setting free of a believing slave, is incumbent upon the slayer. But if he has not the wherewithal, for [setting free] a slave, failing to find one, or the means to obtain one, then the fasting of two successive months, is incumbent upon him as a redemption: here God does not mention the transition to [an alternative to fasting which is] giving food [to the needy], as in the case of [repudiating one�s wife by] zihār, something which al-Shāfi�ī advocates in the more correct of two opinions of his; a relenting from God (tawbatan, �relenting�, is the verbal noun, and is in the accusative because of the implied verb).
 
Not only is the Islamic tax code prejudicial, but so is its penal code.

You wrote:
I'm sorry, but 'Jizyah' is not a 'religous' tax.
'Zakat' , 'Fitrana' , 'Ushr' - these are 'religous taxes'. BECAUSE you HAVE TO pay Zakat, Ushr, Fitrana, when you enter the folds of Islam, and it is mandatory on you by law. If anything, the MUSLIMS are bieng 'taxed' based on thier religious beliefs.

Non-Muslims on the other hand, are EXEMPTED from the above stated type of RELIGIOUS taxes. Had Islamic law believed in 'forcing' & 'punishing' its nonmuslim citizens, it would have herded nonmuslims in the same flock, and would have made Zakat, Ushr, Fitrana mandatory on them. It would not have been unfair either, 'one law for all' - but Islam went the extra mile to be just & fair , in order to respect their 'lack of belief'. i.e. why should you have to do what we do, if you don't believe in it. Unfortunately however, the ostrich hole is much much cozier for some.

That doesnt mean you dont pay ANY taxes . . . you pay your fair share.


Everything you listed are religious taxes. You pay some if you are a Muslim, you pay another if you are not. I have an issue with anything being forced upon someone simply for their religious beliefs.

Many times the dhimmi were required to do more than just pay a tax. If you recall, the Jews of Khaibar were forced into submission and threatened with exile. They begged to remain in their homes in exchange for 50% of their production. Eventually, after the death of Muhammad, one of the Muslim rulers (I forget which one now) expelled the Jews from Khaibar. They weren't even allowed to live in their original homes.

And the dhimmi were allowed to practice their religious beliefs subject to restrictions, the entire point of it was to provide material proof of the dhimmis' subjugation under Islamic rule. It was a tax simply to abase the dhimmi.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#Legal_and_social_status :

In his classic treatise on the principles of Islamic governance, the 11th-century Shafi'i scholar Al-Mawardi divided the conditions attached to ��dhimma�� on top of the requirement to pay tribute into compulsory and desirable. The compulsory conditions included prohibitions on blasphemy against Islam, entering into sexual relations or marriage with a Muslim woman, proselytizing among Muslims, and assisting the enemies of Islam. The desirable conditions included a requirement to wear distinctive apparel, a prohibition to visibly display religious symbols, wine, or pork, ringing church bells, or loudly praying, a requirement to bury dead bodies unobtrusively, and finally, a prohibition on riding horses or camels, but not donkeys.[42] The latter restrictions were largely symbolic in nature and were designed to highlight the inferiority of dhimmis compared to Muslims.[43] In reality, the nature of the conditions imposed clearly point to an interest in safety. For example:

- A Dhimmi was not allowed to build anything higher than a couple of stories high. It was common knowledge at this time that higher ground holds the advantage in a battle or war.

- A Dhimmi could use donkeys rather than horses or camels. This is because a horse or camel, at that time, is the equivalent of a tank today and creates an advantage in warfare. Allowing Dhimmis to use a donkey ensured that they were able to continue transporting things and to avoid hindering their ability to earn income.

Friedmann holds that the principle that "Islam is exalted, and nothing is exalted above it" (as Bukhari puts it) had many practical effects on the relationship between Muslims and unbelievers in Muslim lands.[44] According to Lewis, it would have been a theological and logical absurdity for traditional Islamic societies to give the "same treatment to those who follow the true faith and those who willfully reject it."[45]

The treatment of dhimmis, including the enforcement of restrictions placed on them, varied over time and space, depending on both the goodwill of the ruler and the historical circumstances. The "dhimma" was the most oppressive in Morocco, where Jews were subjected to what Norman Stillman called "ritualized degradation",[46] as well as in Yemen and Persia.[47] The periods when Islamic states were strong generally coincided with more relaxed attitude towards dhimmis; however, treatment of non-Muslims usually became harsher when Islam was weak and in decline.[30]HYPERLINK \l "cite_note-stillman109-47"[48] Over time, the treatment of dhimmis tended to develop in cycles, such that periods of when restrictions imposed on dhimmis were relaxed were immediately followed by the periods of pious reaction when such restrictions came to be enforced again.[49]

See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi#Humiliation_of_dhimmis

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)
Back to Top
Natassia View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 16 July 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 177
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Natassia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2009 at 7:31pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

"I am NOT taxed based on my religious convictions."
 
But churches, religious groups and religious leaders are exempt from being taxed based on their religious convictions and affiliations. Therefore by default you, I, and everyone not belonging to the clergy are being taxed merely because we are not a part of the clergy or a religious organization.  
 
Wrong.  Certain organizations are exempt from being taxed if they qualify for tax-exemption.  Being a religious group does not automatically imply tax-exemption.
 
There are many non-religious groups who are tax-exempt, and there are many non-Christian religious groups who are tax-exempt.  Please review the Federal tax code for tax-exemption requirements.
You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)
Back to Top
Natassia View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 16 July 2009
Status: Offline
Points: 177
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Natassia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2009 at 7:25pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

"But, you've sidetracked with illegitimate tu quoque claims. The problem I have is not with taxes. The problem I have is with PREJUDICIAL taxes. Why should I have to pay a certain tax simply because of my religious beliefs? Why should I be treated like a second-class citizen?"

Considering the fact that this started out on a thread titled: Is Jesus God or not, and someone posted:

"That's okay. You can believe what you want. Christians aren't going to threaten you with execution or a jizyah tax."

Talk about sidetracking.....
 
Original statement that I made a response to:
 
I think that kind of Law is too barbaric, too cruel, too harsh, too ruthless for my understanding. As a mother, I would try my best to protect my beloved children from any kind of harm even if it will affect me physically. Much more so is God AlMighty. He has the Power, The Will, The Means to bring up His Beloved Prophet to Him, saving him from humiliation in the hands of evil people.

Here lies the contradiction of the understanding of the Power of God. Leaving your beloved servant being cruelly tortured, mercilessly crucified in the hands of the Romans and the Jews does not depict a Powerful God to me. I would say, this kind of understanding of God is inferior.


That's okay. You can believe what you want. Christians aren't going to threaten you with execution or a jizyah tax.

This was not meant as a sidetrack.  The person said that God should have saved his prophet from a humiliating death.  If God really is Almighty, He would have been reaching down and taking matters into His own hands.

Christians really believe that God is Almighty.  Therefore, they do not feel it necessary to do God's work such as forcing conversion by threats of execution or a jizyah tax and second-class status.
You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life. (John 5:39-40)
Back to Top
Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member

Female
Joined: 29 March 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1930
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2009 at 4:45pm

"But, you've sidetracked with illegitimate tu quoque claims. The problem I have is not with taxes. The problem I have is with PREJUDICIAL taxes. Why should I have to pay a certain tax simply because of my religious beliefs? Why should I be treated like a second-class citizen?"

Considering the fact that this started out on a thread titled: Is Jesus God or not, and someone posted:

"That's okay. You can believe what you want. Christians aren't going to threaten you with execution or a jizyah tax."

Talk about sidetracking.....
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
Back to Top
Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member

Female
Joined: 29 March 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1930
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 August 2009 at 4:34pm
Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

Thank you Shasta's Aunt.

It is amazing how some things, reactions are based on linguistics.. like the word or words  'in condition of submission." Often we have similar ideas or actions but the phrasing or words are different. English is actually one of the most complex languages. If you put the wrong word in for something the context or meaning comes out wrong. As a teacher of English to nonEnglish speakers this is the hardest concepts to teach. 
 
You're welcome. Though I'm sure the jizyah will rise up again....
 
 
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12345 7>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.