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Tax / Jizyah

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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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    Posted: 29 July 2009 at 11:15am
Originally posted by Akhe Abdullah Akhe Abdullah wrote:

[Natassia]Christians aren't going to threaten you with execution or a jizyah tax.
[Akhe Abdullah]Living in the U.S,Dont pay your taxes and see what happens to you.You wont get death but they will make your life unbarable.
 
The jizyah tax was only for young non-Mulsim men who refused to serve in the military while living under Islamic rule. They were being protected by the military so if they refused to serve, and they had that right, they were taxed.
 
Unlike the military draft which has been used in the United States and other predominantly Christian countries for centuries, where the young men do not get a choice, they serve or go to prison. Or mandatory service which is used in Israel and other "Christian" countries, where upon your 18th birthday you are automatically expected to report for duty. Failure to do so results in prison or sometimes worse.
 
I don't understand why Christians always point to the jizyah as something so horrible. Which system is more fair? The option to opt out and pay a tax or forced military service or prison? Let's see, forced to kill or prison, forced to kill or prison.... hmmmmmmmm
I am pretty sure if the U.S. gave the option to pay a tax instead of forced military service during times of war millions of young people would happily do so.
 
As for threatening death, it wasn't Muslims torturing all those people during the Inquisitions, the witch hunts, etc... The Quran clearly states there is no compulsion in religion, you can't force someone to believe in God. They either do or they don't.


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 29 July 2009 at 11:20am
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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PattyaMainer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PattyaMainer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2009 at 12:06pm
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

Originally posted by Akhe Abdullah Akhe Abdullah wrote:

[Natassia]Christians aren't going to threaten you with execution or a jizyah tax.
[Akhe Abdullah]Living in the U.S,Dont pay your taxes and see what happens to you.You wont get death but they will make your life unbarable.
 
The jizyah tax was only for young non-Mulsim men who refused to serve in the military while living under Islamic rule. They were being protected by the military so if they refused to serve, and they had that right, they were taxed.
 
Unlike the military draft which has been used in the United States and other predominantly Christian countries for centuries, where the young men do not get a choice, they serve or go to prison. Or mandatory service which is used in Israel and other "Christian" countries, where upon your 18th birthday you are automatically expected to report for duty. Failure to do so results in prison or sometimes worse.
 
I don't understand why Christians always point to the jizyah as something so horrible. Which system is more fair? The option to opt out and pay a tax or forced military service or prison? Let's see, forced to kill or prison, forced to kill or prison.... hmmmmmmmm
I am pretty sure if the U.S. gave the option to pay a tax instead of forced military service during times of war millions of young people would happily do so.
 
As for threatening death, it wasn't Muslims torturing all those people during the Inquisitions, the witch hunts, etc... The Quran clearly states there is no compulsion in religion, you can't force someone to believe in God. They either do or they don't.
 
Shasta, the draft in the US was dropped after the Vietnam War in 1973.  What we have had since then is an all volunteer military.  The military member voluntarily enlist.  At age 18 they are required to enroll with the military in the event of an all out war.....then they would bring back the draft and these men could be drafted.  Actually, young men and women are enlisting in great numbers in the military.  Here are the statistics:
 

The Department of Defense has announced its recruiting and retention statistics by the active and reserve components for the FY 2006 recruiting year.

Active duty recruiting. All services have met or exceeded their recruiting goals for fiscal 2006.

Active duty retention. Overall, the active duty services exceeded retention goals across the board. The Army, Air Force and Marine Corps exceeded fiscal 2006 retention goals in every category. The Navy retained in high numbers at the outset of the year, but a focus on physical fitness test performance led to an increase in disqualification among first-term sailors.

Reserve forces recruiting. Two of six Reserve components met or exceeded their accession goals for fiscal 2006, while two other Reserve components, the Army National Guard and the Air National Guard were close to making their end of year goals. Although the Army Reserve fell short of its annual accession goal, the U.S. Army Recruiting Command achieved 99+percent of its annual recruiting goal.

Componant Accessions Goal Percent
Army
80,635
80,000 101
Navy
36,679
36,656 100
Marine Corps
32,337 32,301 100
Air Force
30,889
30,750 100
Army National Guard 69,042 70,000 99
Army Reserve
34,379 36,032 95
Navy Reserve
9,722 11,180 87
Marine Corps Reserve
8,056 8,024 100
Air National Guard
9,138 9,380
97
Air Force Reserve 6,989 6,607 106
 
 
It seems apparent that these young folks are willingly joining the US military.  There is no draft, but they realize they have an opportunity for obtaining an education, housing, health care, etc., etc.  Many members have studied and received college educations while serving in the armed forces.  The number of military who are re-enlisting are increasing as well. I hope this offers an explanation showing our young people are in no way forced to join the service.
 
Best regards,
Patty
 
"FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS POSSIBLE. FOR THOSE WHO BELIEVE, NO EXPLANATION IS NECESSARY."
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Hayfa View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2009 at 12:41pm
Asalaam Alaikum,

Interesting Akhe, as a woman we did not have to worry about that.  The Amish opts out but they do not go to college etc.

I am not in favor or war or anything, but certainly there are some men who are not very well suited to the military.
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Akhe Abdullah View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Akhe Abdullah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2009 at 12:56pm
As Salamu Alaikum, Hayfa.We'll after reverting to Al Islam at 19 in prison(former N.O.I). I had experienced boot-camp(prison boot camp)it was operated by ex-millitary sergents, leutinants ect and prison gaurds.They used the same tactics of breaking a man down so he can be submissive to their commands.I didnt like it but it was either 90 days of that or 5 more yrs.They make you shave it's was humiliating.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 July 2009 at 7:40pm
"It seems apparent that these young folks are willingly joining the US military.  There is no draft, but they realize they have an opportunity for obtaining an education, housing, health care, etc., etc.  Many members have studied and received college educations while serving in the armed forces.  The number of military who are re-enlisting are increasing as well. I hope this offers an explanation showing our young people are in no way forced to join the service."
 
Yes, since the economy crashed the military has been recruiting more, but even they admit they are recruiting "low quality" recruits:

Military Recruiting 2007: Army Misses Benchmarks by Greater Margin

http://www.nationalpriorities.org/militaryrecruiting2007

And while there is currently not a "draft" the stop loss policy is a draft by default. The only difference being that it penalizes those who have already been unfortunate enough to have to serve in the war zone.
 

"Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, as one of his first acts in his position, penned a memo compelling commanders to "minimize" the stop-lossing of soldiers....The United States Army states that enlisted soldiers facing stop-loss can now voluntarily separate by request, under provision 3-12, but only after they complete an involuntary deployment of twelve to fifteen months and 90 days stabilization time (time allowed to "out-process" from the military) can they apply.

"Despite Secretary Gates's order, by April 2008 use of stop-loss had increased by 43%.[9] Soldiers affected by stop-loss were then serving, on average, an extra 6.6 months, and sergeants through sergeants first class made up 45% of these soldiers. From 2002 through April 2008, 58,300 soldiers were affected by stop-loss, or about 1% of active duty, Reserve, and National Guard troops.[10]"

And men are still required to sign up for the Selective Service or face jail time:
 
"All U.S. male citizens and male aliens are currently required to sign up for the Selective Service within 30 days of their 18th birthday. As of 2004, females are not required to register, but there has been some controversy on this subject. If someone fails to register for the Selective Service they can be sent to jail."
 
 
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2009 at 4:54am
Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

Originally posted by Akhe Abdullah Akhe Abdullah wrote:

[Natassia]Christians aren't going to threaten you with execution or a jizyah tax. [Akhe Abdullah]Living in the U.S,Dont pay your taxes and see what happens to you.You wont get death but they will make your life unbarable.


I don't understand why Christians always point to the jizyah as something so horrible. Which system is more fair? The option to opt out and pay a tax or forced military service or prison?



In addition,

I also dont understand why 'Jizyah' tax is something bad and how can it be used against Islam?

Is not the public supposed to pay tax to the government?

Non-muslims seem to think that under shariah, non-muslims are bieng levied with an extra/unfair tax. Which is NOT true, and is SO NOT the case!

Reality is - under shariah, non-muslims end up PAYING LESSER taxes than the Muslims, and end up with FEWER financial responsibilities than the Muslims.

How?

Under complusory financial obligations : Muslims HAVE TO pay Zakat, Ushr, Fitrana. The percentage/amount depends on the amount of wealth the muslim owns. So they end up contributing more to the social welfare fund.

Apart from these "taxes" (if that is the correct term)- the Islamic system is such, that on certain Islamic events, Muslims HAVE TO contribute to the society. For example, Eid-ul-Azha, in which the wealthier    
have to buy and slaughter an animal (goat/sheep/camel/cow etc) and distribute the meat among the less-affluent.

Apart from the above compulsory financial obligations. Muslims are supposed to make voluntary contributions as well, known as 'Sadaqah'. (which Allah Himself says in the Qur'an, is a 'Loan to Allah', which He will repay us   many folds. SubhanAllah)

Muslims are even supposed to contribute in times of Jihaad (war), both financially and in terms of life. This becomes a fard-e-kifayah when the situation occurs, i.e. becomes obligatory on the community to perform.

Nonmuslims are EXEMPTED from all the above financial responsibilities. . . . .

Since they do not believe in Islam, they are not at all obliged to follow its tenets. Which is why, the ONLY taxes they pay are either Jizyah (which is in turn used ON THEIR OWN welfare & protection) . . . OR anyother secular form of tax, which the government may levy (Which btw, Muslims have to pay as well. Since secular taxes are levied on everyone regardless of religion)

Nonmuslim problems with Jizyah are again a simple, stereotypical result of ignorance towards Islam - and illogical hatred/fear.





Edited by Chrysalis - 31 July 2009 at 4:57am
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Natassia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2009 at 6:48am
Truth about the jizya...
 
From the Tafsir Ibn Kathir:
 
Quran 9:29 Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Allah said, until they pay the Jizyah, if they do not choose to embrace Islam, with willing submission, in defeat and subservience, and feel themselves subdued, disgraced, humiliated and belittled.

Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said, "Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley." This is why the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace.
 
 
From the Tanw�r al-Miqb�s min Tafs�r Ibn �Abb�s
[Quran 9:29] Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture, the Jews and Christians, as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor in the bliss of Paradise, and forbid not, in the Torah, that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth, do not submit themselves to Allah through confession of Allah's divine Oneness, until they pay the tribute readily, standing: from hand to hand, being brought low, abased.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 July 2009 at 7:42am
Originally posted by Chrysalis Chrysalis wrote:

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

Originally posted by Akhe Abdullah Akhe Abdullah wrote:

[Natassia]Christians aren't going to threaten you with execution or a jizyah tax. [Akhe Abdullah]Living in the U.S,Dont pay your taxes and see what happens to you.You wont get death but they will make your life unbarable.


I don't understand why Christians always point to the jizyah as something so horrible. Which system is more fair? The option to opt out and pay a tax or forced military service or prison?



In addition,

I also dont understand why 'Jizyah' tax is something bad and how can it be used against Islam?

Is not the public supposed to pay tax to the government?

Non-muslims seem to think that under shariah, non-muslims are bieng levied with an extra/unfair tax. Which is NOT true, and is SO NOT the case!

Reality is - under shariah, non-muslims end up PAYING LESSER taxes than the Muslims, and end up with FEWER financial responsibilities than the Muslims.
This one needs to be explained more to me.  I researched it, but I do nt understand.
http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Jizyah
How?

Under complusory financial obligations : Muslims HAVE TO pay Zakat, Ushr, Fitrana. The percentage/amount depends on the amount of wealth the muslim owns. So they end up contributing more to the social welfare fund.
I thought zakat was the same 2.5% for ALL after a certain income had been reached which actually is a fair way for all.
 
Apart from these "taxes" (if that is the correct term)- the Islamic system is such, that on certain Islamic events, Muslims HAVE TO contribute to the society. For example, Eid-ul-Azha, in which the wealthier    
have to buy and slaughter an animal (goat/sheep/camel/cow etc) and distribute the meat among the less-affluent.
Yes, understand this.

Apart from the above compulsory financial obligations. Muslims are supposed to make voluntary contributions as well, known as 'Sadaqah'. (which Allah Himself says in the Qur'an, is a 'Loan to Allah', which He will repay us   many folds. SubhanAllah)
Yes, this is clear enough. But just to explain that Christians make voluntary contributions at their churches, so it's not like they are lacking withholding money. Churches also give food, clothing etc to the needy .
In the Old Testament it is clear about 10% tithing, which was obligatory and some Christian religions still practice this today.
 
 Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God�s house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the atenth unto thee.
 
Leviticus 27:30 And all the atithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord�s: it is holy unto the Lord.
  31 And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof.
  32 And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the arod, the tenth shall be holy unto the Lord.
  33 He shall not search whether it be good or bad, neither shall he change it: and if he change it at all, then both it and the change thereof shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed.
  34 These are the commandments, which the Lord commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.

Deut 26:

26:11  And thou shalt rejoice in every good thing which the LORD thy God hath given unto thee, and unto thine house, thou, and the Levite, and the stranger that is among you.

26:12  When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;

26:13  Then thou shalt say before the LORD thy God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of mine house, and also have given them unto the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all thy commandments which thou hast commanded me: I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten them.

26:14  I have not eaten thereof in my mourning, neither have I taken away ought thereof for any unclean use, nor given ought thereof for the dead: but I have hearkened to the voice of the LORD my God, and have done according to all that thou hast commanded me.


Muslims are even supposed to contribute in times of Jihaad (war), both financially and in terms of life. This becomes a fard-e-kifayah when the situation occurs, i.e. becomes obligatory on the community to perform.

Nonmuslims are EXEMPTED from all the above financial responsibilities. . . . .

Since they do not believe in Islam, they are not at all obliged to follow its tenets. Which is why, the ONLY taxes they pay are either Jizyah (which is in turn used ON THEIR OWN welfare & protection) . . . OR anyother secular form of tax, which the government may levy (Which btw, Muslims have to pay as well. Since secular taxes are levied on everyone regardless of religion)
I am not convinced that muslims pay all the correct amount of governemnt taxes, especially in Pakistan where many try to evade this form of tax.

Nonmuslim problems with Jizyah are again a simple, stereotypical result of ignorance towards Islam - and illogical hatred/fear.

Perhaps it can be explained in more detail so I can understand the above comments. Many thanks.

some of us are a lot like cement:- all mixed up and permanently set
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