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Muslims in the West
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ZamanH View Drop Down
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Points: 448 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZamanH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 July 2005 at 10:55pm

Quote Furthermore, to refuse to take responsibility for oneself, and instead be constantly blaming others, is a huge error in life, imho.

Yes, I know. I come from a well-off family. My father is nuclear-physicist, my elder brother is an engineer and is working in the U.S and my another brother(who is my twin brother) is a student and has already been recruited by a MNC through campus placement. I have a shop and I am doing well, too. I don't hold grudge against the West for personal reasons. My disdain for the West is more objective than that.
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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Israfil View Drop Down
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Points: 3984 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 July 2005 at 4:23pm

Zaman said:

My disdain for the West is more objective than that.

key words: "My disdain"  makes what you say about the west not objective but subjective.
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ZamanH View Drop Down
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Points: 448 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZamanH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 July 2005 at 9:20am
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Zaman said:

My disdain for the West is more objective than that.

key words: "My disdain"  makes what you say about the west not objective but subjective.

Yeah, I always try to see things in proper context. My approach is not absolutely objecticve.
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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b95000 View Drop Down
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Points: 1328 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote b95000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 July 2005 at 6:14pm
Originally posted by ZamanH ZamanH wrote:

Quote To view history through one simple prism is rarely ever a true picture - whether that prism is a Western or Eastern perspective.  To see nuances and understand more about human nature reveals a fuller picture of responsiblities.  The West & the East are neither wholly good nor wholly bad.

Yes, I know. As I had said in other forum, I believe people in general are equally selfish everywhere.

B: I am in total agreement with you here..thank you.

Westerners have got themselves to such situation that they depend on their prosperity

B: I will also agree with you here - too much dependence on prosperity - Mother Teresa said it was a greater poverty than physical poverty - I agree with this..

on robbing others and to protect their interests they will probably side with robbers (that is reflected in the neo-con view of establishing an American century). Muslims on the other hand will have to fight the robbers to protect their interests.

B: I can appreciate your concerns and criticisms.  'Robbing others' is a harsh critique and perhaps you can be more specific.  Would you also agree that the ME Kingdoms have robbed their popluaces quite a bit (to use your metaphor?)  I would just say that there are many, many people of goodwill in the West, onto whom your overlay makes absolutely no sense whatsoever...what do you do/say about them?



Edited by b95000
Bruce
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b95000 View Drop Down
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Points: 1328 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote b95000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 July 2005 at 6:43pm
Originally posted by ZamanH ZamanH wrote:

Quote Furthermore, to refuse to take responsibility for oneself, and instead be constantly blaming others, is a huge error in life, imho.

Yes, I know. I come from a well-off family. My father is nuclear-physicist, my elder brother is an engineer and is working in the U.S and my another brother(who is my twin brother) is a student and has already been recruited by a MNC through campus placement. I have a shop and I am doing well, too. I don't hold grudge against the West for personal reasons. My disdain for the West is more objective than that.



Thanks for sharing about your family and your life.  IMHO Zaman, you can't have it both ways..You can't be blessed and enjoy the goodness of the West and then primarily hold disdain for it...there's nothing objective about that - that seems illogical to me.

IMHO, logically, you can hold, in some sort of difficult balance, an appreciation for the West for areas of good and a disdain for the West for areas of evil.  Would you agree with that?


Edited by b95000
Bruce
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ZamanH View Drop Down
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Points: 448 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZamanH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 July 2005 at 9:05pm

Originally posted by b95000 b95000 wrote:

 IMHO Zaman, you can't have it both ways..You can't be blessed and enjoy the goodness of the West and then primarily hold disdain for it...there's nothing objective about that - that's seems illogical to me.

IMHO, logically, you can hold, in some sort of difficult balance, an appreciation for the West for areas of good and a disdain for the West for areas of evil.  Would you agree with that?

Trading with the West might not always be unethical. Neither my family nor I beg for anything from the West. We owe to the West just as much it owes to us.



Edited by ZamanH
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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b95000 View Drop Down
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Points: 1328 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote b95000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 July 2005 at 9:49pm
Originally posted by ZamanH ZamanH wrote:

Originally posted by b95000 b95000 wrote:

 IMHO Zaman, you can't have it both ways..You can't be blessed and enjoy the goodness of the West and then primarily hold disdain for it...there's nothing objective about that - that's seems illogical to me.

IMHO, logically, you can hold, in some sort of difficult balance, an appreciation for the West for areas of good and a disdain for the West for areas of evil.  Would you agree with that?

Trading with the West might not always be unethical. Neither my family nor I beg for anything from the West. We owe to the West just as much it owes to us.



But you cannot just extract what you wish from the West and imagine that that is that.  The goodness that the West offers, freedom, opportunity, education, et al...we owe much more to those that came before us - who have sweat and bled for these things...than they owe to us...in my humble opinion.

For you to then use the word "disdain", in light of your experiences shared, is such a harsh judgement on the atmosphere that has been (at least in good part) good to you and your family.  True?

Originally posted by ZamanH ZamanH wrote:

Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Zaman said:

My disdain for the West is more objective than that.

key words: "My disdain"  makes what you say about the west not objective but subjective.

Yeah, I always try to see things in proper context. My approach is not absolutely objecticve.



Edited by b95000
Bruce
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Whisper View Drop Down
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Points: 4752 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Whisper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 July 2005 at 8:16am

Yes, if it were for personal reasons, I would be worshiping the UK and the US. I won't go into the reasons. The list will be quite long. We haven't driven the west out in the cold. The US and UK have done that for themseleves by constantly running and / or sponsoring murder campaigns in the Mid East.

As someone said a while ago: "if we just hate the west why don't we hit Sweden"? It is just the US and UK misdeeds that have brought it to this stage.
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