Burden of Proof |
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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My mistake, and thanks for the correction. Rituals do have psychological and social benefits. What I meant to say is that the content of those rituals is unimportant. Christians and Jews get the same benefit from their rituals as Muslims do from theirs, and the same can probably be said for any other religion. Edited by Ron Webb - 03 May 2009 at 2:25pm |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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You just finished telling me that the reason God would not reveal Himself to me personally is that I am so unimportant -- "we are but an atom (if not smaller) in this universe." I'm just agreeing with you.
No, it only means that people thought that God made His presence felt to them.
At one time, just about everybody believed that the earth was flat. Does that mean that it really was flat?
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Chrysalis
Senior Member Joined: 25 November 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2033 |
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Chapter 2, Surah Baqarah:
Verse 118: 'Say those without knowledge: "Why does God not speak unto us? Or why comes not unto us a Sign?" So said the people before them words of similar import. Their hearts are alike. We have indeed made clear the Signs unto any people who hold firmly to faith' (in their hearts).
Verse 164: . . .'(here) indeed are Signs for a people that are wise.'
Verse 210: 'Will they wait until God comes to them in canopies of clouds, with angels (in His train) and the question is (thus) settled? But to God do all questions go back (for decision)'.
Chapter 45: Surah Al-Jathiyah (The Kneeling Down)
3: Verily in the heavens and the earth, are Signs for those who believe.
4: And in the creation of yourselves and the fact that animals are scattered (through the earth), are Signs for those of assured Faith.
5: And in the alternation of Night and Day, and the fact that Allah sends down Sustenance from the sky, and revives therewith the earth after its death, and in the change of the winds,- are Signs for those that are wise.
6: Such are the Signs of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs?
7: Woe to each sinful dealer in Falsehoods:
8: He hears the Signs of Allah rehearsed to him, yet is obstinate and lofty, as if he had not heard them: then announce to him a Penalty Grievous!
9: And when he learns something of Our Signs, he takes them in jest: for such there will be a humiliating Penalty.
Edited by Chrysalis - 03 May 2009 at 11:18am |
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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Chrysalis
Senior Member Joined: 25 November 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2033 |
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I disagree. I think rituals do have some sort of value in them. Humans wouldnt be following rituals if they did not see value in it.
One can say rituals result in solidarity, unity, brotherhood, sense of community, discipline, sense of purpose.
We all follow rituals. . . religious or not. They also have symbolic/emotional value. I'm sure you follow many rituals in life too.
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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Chrysalis
Senior Member Joined: 25 November 2007 Status: Offline Points: 2033 |
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I dont think its fair to assume what matters (or not) to God. If someone made such an assumption about you - you would object, wouldnt you? You cannot make a conclusion about what matters to God or anyone else for that matter.
Essentially - people of different faiths (generally speaking) believe in some sort of Higher Power/ Creator / Divine Bieng. That is a common ground. Whether or not the rest of the message He conveyed successfully (according to you) - is another discussion. The mere fact that ppl DO believe in SOME sort of Creator/Power/Force means God DID make His presence/existence felt.
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"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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In other words, it really doesn't matter to God whether we believe or not. That is my opinion; and yes, perhaps it is arrogant to expect otherwise.
The majority of people believe in a huge variety of different Gods, so if it's the same God in each case, He's doing a lousy job of making His existence clear. The fact that religious myths are so prevalent shows that people want God to exist, which (as I said to Nur_Ilahi in "Does God exist") is a very different question from whether He actually does exist. |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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This has nothing to do with free will. I am just as free to choose to follow the Quran or not, regardless of whether it is given to me directly or through an intermediary. Edited by Ron Webb - 03 May 2009 at 9:27am |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Ron Webb
Senior Member Male atheist Joined: 30 January 2008 Location: Ottawa, Canada Status: Offline Points: 2467 |
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I did say that our natural instincts can be distorted by bad parenting and indoctrination with false teachings. It is for those people that we need laws and punishment.
Nor was I, but I think as a mature adult I have all the knowledge I need to be a good person. Frankly, I think you do too. It would be interesting, if I had the time, to go through the various religions and break their teachings into three categories: (1) basic instincts and human needs (e.g. love, respect, community) that virtually all religions share and which all of us should know intuitively; (2) abstract ethical principles and institutions (justice, charity, government) that can be logically derived from those instincts and needs; and (3) arbitrary dogma (ritual, taboos) having nothing to to with either of the above two. I think all of us have (1), even if it has been suppressed or distorted by false teaching; and all of us can discover (2), perhaps with help from others. As for (3), I see no value in it.
And you cannot imagine that these things could have evolved naturally. That is the fundamental difference between us.
As you pointed out in "Higher Authority", prophets are not earthly rulers (and I don't know why you allow Muhammad as an exception). They are messengers, and messengers have no authority except to transmit the message. The only qualifications required are a good memory to remember the message, and the integrity and reliability to transmit it without errors or alterations. Most ordinary people could do the job.
All good questions. Why does God save His best work for only a few lucky people, and leave the rest of us to muddle along with inferior abilities and incomplete information? The Quran says that Allah guides who He wills, and leads others astray. It never made any sense to me. |
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Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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