Where Islam & Christian Agree and Differ

Just to point something out..not all Christian religions believe in 'one's natural state of sinfulness.

Sorry to jump in there

Douggg wrote: truthnowcome wrote: Mr. Dougg, who told you, is the Jews? It has nothing to do with Jerusalem capital!  Hi TNC , please just look at the verses.... 1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azail: yea, ye shall flee like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah , l: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. TMC, when the Lord splits the mount of Olives in half, making a way of escape, the ones who are escaping do like they did in the day of Uzziah king of Judah.     Who was Uzziah, the king of Judah over?   The Jews. When Zechariah 14 takes place, God is going to come to the rescue of the Jews.    The Palestinians were not governed by King Uzziah. Doug L. < ="Content-" content="text/; charset=utf-8">< name="ProgId" content="Word.">< name="Generator" content="Microsoft Word 10">< name="Originator" content="Microsoft Word 10"><> to the moderators for quickly processing my recent posts for view.     For a while it was taking 4 or 5 days.   Yikes!

honeto wrote: Hi Doug, sorry I missed the forum for a while, Praise the Lord (Alhumdolillah) now I am back. No "Zechariah 14" has no place in Islamic teachings. My personal view is that its language like many other parts of the Bible does not fit to be God's revelation. Take the following for example:"2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped." I don't believe this is the way the day of God comes, "1 A day of the LORD is coming" I do not believe that God will be with those who denied and wanted to kill His beloved prophet Jesus (pbuh) and called him names. So there is the biggest one right there. They also deny the seal of the prophets, prophet Mohammed (pbuh), they have no chance.  Anyone who denies God and denies His prophets and tries to kill them has no chance in God's kingdom. In fact when you say: "God will come to the rescue of Jews" you actually contradict your own belief, as its the Jews who denied and tried to kill what God sent as the Messiah. Some portions of the Zachaiah 14 suggest that only those who worship to God Almighty will be saved that part is true as it is in line with the truth and logic. Hasan

Hi Hasan,  I could see your point - if by the time Zechariah 14  takes place, the Jews still reject Jesus.

However, by the time that Zechariah 14 rolls around, the Jews will have become Christians by that time.  

There are 7 years forthcoming, to end the 70 weeks (of years) of Daniel 9, on the Jews.     That 7 years also marks the time of the Antichrist.   Halfway through that 7 years, the Antichrist declares that he is god and persecutes the Jews.   It is during that time of persecution that the Jews become Christians.    Revelation 12:17 (in that verse it says that they have the testimony of Jesus, meaning they believe in Jesus as their savior) is the Jews who do not make it out of Jerusalem when the Antichrist makes his declaration and the image of him is setup to be worshiped.    Those Jews stuck in Jerusalem (who will have become Christians at time) are the ones in Zechariah 14, who will be rescued by Jesus.

Jesus said that he is not coming back until the Jews say "blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord", meaning Jesus.    We agree, I think, that the Jews at present do not think of Jesus in that manner and have profaned his name over the past 2000 years.   But that is going to stop and reverse itself.

God has a timetable for all of these incredible things to happen.   It starts with the invasion of Gog/Magog, Ezekiel 38-39.   Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

After Gog/Magog, the Antichrist will emerge out of that conflict, and the Jews will mistakenly take him as their messiah.   Which lasts for 3 1/2 years, until the Antichrist declares that he is god and demands worship.   At that time, God will open the Jews eyes that Jesus is indeed their messiah and they will believe in him.    At the end of the 3 1/2 years persecution by the Antichrist, Jesus returns (Zechariah 14) to the mount of olives - where he left this earth from and ascended into heaven (Acts 1:6-12).

Jesus is actually coming back to restore the kingdom to Israel.   As to when, the disciples asked him in Acts 1:6.   He said for them, it was not for them (the disciples) to know. 

When Islam, the muslim countries, seek to destroy Israel, they are actually going against God of the bible and against Jesus.   God's promise to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is not canceled because of the unbelief and conduct of the Jews.    God's plan is to change the Jews, as well as, maintaining His reputation to the nations of the world that He is good on His promises.  
 
Romans 11:

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The point is that Zechariah 14 was written 2000 years before Mohammed and Islam.   As is Ezekiel 38/39.   So, neither is a reactionary corruption of the bible for the sole purpose of disproving Islam, after the emergence of Isalm, since it was written 2000 years prior to Islam.   

Ezekiel 38/39 is not complimentary to the Jews.    And Zechariah 14 is not a rosey picture either.   But the Jews has faithfully retained those scriptures in the Tanach, as it is God's will that we might have and embrace the truth.

I respect your straightforward answer  "No "Zechariah 14" has no place in Islamic teachings."   This is a problem for Islam, however, on many fronts.  I hope that you consider the ramificiations to Islam if Zecharaiah 14 and Ezekiel 38/39 are true - which both Judaism and Christianity believe that those passages are true.

 
Doug L.



Edited by Douggg - 07 March 2010 at 10:58am

honeto wrote: Doug, I wanted to show you that "the day of the Lord" as portrayed in Zecharian 14, that will come with the rape of women is not how we percieve the day of the Lord in Islam. As far as "Salvation is of the Jews" as the Bible says remains a question. Let me ask you this: A Jew, who lives today or say yesterday and died with their current belief which is in denial of Jesus, tell me if you can, what chance of salvation he/she has?

Hi Hasan, , fair question.   According to one gentleman I was listening to on internet radio, he said "a person is responsible for the truth which has been revealed to them."  That gentleman was Tovia Singer, on radio Israel,
a counter(Christian)missionary rabbi.  Nonetheless, I agree with him in principle.

If a Jew, or anyone for that matter, has heard the gospel a sufficient number of times to grasp it, and yet harden their hearts not to receive it and die in that state... then they are eternally lost. 

On the other hand, some one who has never heard the gospel a sufficent number of time to grasp it, or perhaps they have a mental impairment, or not of the accountable age, such as a baby or child or young person... then they are not eternally lost soley on that basis.

Regarding the able adults, in Christianity, there is a generally accepted line of thought that God will be able to read the intent of that person's heart - of what they would have done with the gospel had they had the opportunity. And God will treat them accordingly.

The children, young persons, mentally impaired, and the like are, in Christianity, generally thought to receive eternal life by what Jesus did for them - whether they grasp it or not.

By the way let me correct you, Muslims don't want to destroy Israel. They are only against injustice and occupation of their land by those who took it from them. If someone kick you out of your home what would you do to get it back, specially when the snatcher turns bad? I could write more to make you dizzy but that's not my way. The truth has to be said clearly, and that's it.   Peace my friend, Hasan

Hasan, you are touching on a never ending argument of "who's justified"....  

I only know what God says in the bible in terms of the invasion of Israel in the last days by Gog/Magog...which definitely includes Iran (Persia).   And just look at what is going on.   Iran is trying to get a nuke to destroy Israel.   It is so blatant.   How can you miss that? 

I understand that not 100% of muslims want to destroy Israel - it is that other 99% (my percentages may be a little off) that I am talking about .    I mean just look at Israel's neighbors.     How can you say they don't want Israel destroyed?     In 1948, Israel declared itself to be a nation again - the next day all of the neighboring Arab states in the region declared war on Israel. 

Isn't there something in Islam, that if land is ever taken by Muslims, and if that land should afterwards fall out of Muslims hands, that Muslims cannot rest until that land returns to Muslim control?    Isn't that one of the factors, we are talking about?

Doug L.


Edited by Douggg - 15 March 2010 at 2:23am