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believer

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Joined: 08 January 2008
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Points: 1397

Posted: 16 March 2009 at 1:06pm

2:130

And who shuns/turns away from Abraham's religion/faith except who made himself ignorant/foolish ?And We had chosen/purified him in the present world, and that he is in the end (other life) from (E) the correct/righteous.

Nur - that is where your thinking is wrong- Jesus did not want to save Himself. He knew what the plan was. Jesus' Kingdom is not here on earth.

Many Muslims have been told that Jesus did not complete His mission one earth Please read:

John 16

¹⁶"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."

¹⁷Some of his disciples said to one another, "What does he mean by saying, 'In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me,' and 'Because I am going to the Father'?" ¹⁸They kept asking, "What does he mean by 'a little while'? We don't understand what he is saying."

¹⁹Jesus saw that they wanted to ask him about this, so he said to them, "Are you asking one another what I meant when I said, 'In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me'? ²⁰I tell you the truth, you will weep and mourn while the world rejoices. You will grieve, but your grief will turn to joy.

John 17

¹After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. ²For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. ³Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. ⁴I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. ⁵And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down

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Posted: 16 March 2009 at 2:10pm

"All authourity on heaven and earth has been given to Christ why after 500 years do we need someone elses authority."

According to the Bible all authority has not been given to Jesus:

Matthew 24: ³⁵"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

³⁶"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 16 March 2009 at 2:13pm

�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt

Nazarene

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Posted: 16 March 2009 at 6:07pm

peace to you and gods blessings!

here's a cool vid. to help out on why it took some 600 yrs. for muhammad to come.

title " WHY DID GOD WAIT SO LONG?"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFmKZb7I8hg

also here's a good book on the true history of christanity

BEYOND BELIEF by ELAIN PAGELS

ALSO

READ THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS by STEVEN DAVIES

READ THE GOSPEL OF PHILLP

READ THE GOSPEL OF THE HOLY TWELVE.

as you will find in islam we love QUESTIONS!

muslims will rarely ever{ i've never experenced it } tell you not to read this or do not watch that as most christain leaders direct thier " flock " to do.

and yes i was a active christain all my life.

my mother was a decon in the amrican baptist church.

and my father is curently a decon at the church.

i know what i was taught about islam in the church. the samethings you were taught. lies!

when you can look at the bible with the same standards as the church implores towards others then you may begin to see.

love

leland

Edited by Nazarene - 16 March 2009 at 7:42pm

love for all conquers all

honeto

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Points: 2487

Posted: 16 March 2009 at 6:35pm

JOUBERAR wrote:

_ALI_ wrote:

Salam JOUBERAR

If Jesus was only if prophet as quran stated it then he also could have sinned like all the other prophets

Unlike Christianity, in Islam, the prophets do not knowingly commit sins. They may commit small mistake like Jonah did but they are then immediately corrected by God.

why then call him the messiah or wait for his second coming if was only a prophet.

A messiah does not mean a person who is sinless. It only means a deliverer. And like I said, all prophets including Jesus Christ did not knowingly commit sins. And for a second coming, you don't have to be a god. You can be a prophet and come back if God wills. And he will come back to defeat Dajjal (antiChrist) and to correct the Christians. As the Bible says

Mathew 7:22-23

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Peace

You tell me prophets never sinned get your facts together and so any prophet can be a messiah.

Why then have dajjal got his own heaven and own hell if God is the only one who have a heaven and a hell he is only one who got the power to through someone in to hell.

The deity of Christ is the real stumbling block for many in accepting Christianity as true. It is here that Jews, Moslems, Unitarians, Jehovah's Witnesses, and many others come to grief. It is from misbelief or at least inadequate belief about the incarnation that difficulties at other points of the gospel story usually spring.

Following Christ is more than just following in the footsteps of a great man. To be a Christian means accepting the absolute uniqueness of His person. Jesus is different from any other person who has ever lived.

What do we know about the present activities of Christ? First we know that all authority on heaven and earth has been given to Christ (Matt 28:18). This means that Jesus is the active sustainer of the universe. You can thank Him that everything doesn't just fly into bits. As the active force in creation, He willed the universe into existence. Now the force of His will keeps the natural laws which we call physics, chemistry, and biology etc in effect.

         Secondly, Jesus is the head of His Church (Eph 1:22, Col 1:18). The Church is the body of Christ because all saved persons are saved into Christ. In John 16:13 we are told that the Spirit teaches what He hears. The Spirit is present in heaven before Christ to hear the many things Christ has yet to tell us (John 16:12-15). Christ has the powe to take us the many and form us into one body of many members, the Church.

         Thirdly, Jesus is the giver of Spiritual gifts through the ministry of the Holy Spirit. Christ has both called and equipped us for the service of the Church and worship of Him. While some gifts are universal in nature some are given only to certain people (Rom 12:3-8,
I Cor 12:4-11). Christ has a plan for each one of us according to His purpose (Phil 2:13, Eph 2:10, Jn 10:10). We should not reject what God has given us the ability to do. We need to recognize that often the reasons for the way He has equipped us us not apparent to us.

         Fourthly, Jesus intercedes for us, this He began to do before He left earth (John 17:1-26) This means that Jesus is praying for you now, today. Because He is all powerful He is able to turn His attention to all of us individually. He will continue this ministry as long as any of His people are on earth (John 17:20). This present ministry of Christ was given to us in the twenty-third Psalm by David. It is because He continually has us in His mind, that our salvation is secure if we are born again to Christ.

         Fifthly, Jesus is our advocate before the judgment throne of God. If it were not for the advocacy of Christ in heaven our sins as Christians would destroy the fellowship we have with God. What is necessary on our part is to be sorry for and confess our sin to Him (1 John 1:9). Jesus pleads our cause before God, and the sufficiency of His death to pay for the penalty that is rightfully ours.

         Sixthly, Christ is building. He has gone ahead of us into heaven and is preparing a place for us to reside (John 14:1-3). Jesus has taken personal interest in our future abode!

         Seventhly, Jesus is expecting to return for us. He is preparing to return at a time known only the Father (Mark 13:32). We do not know when this time will occur, but there will be enough time to gather the harvest.

All authourity on heaven and earth has been given to Christ why after 500 years do we need someone elses authority.

Jouberar,

welcome to this Islamic website, a source for guidance for you and for all who seek it in truth. I can guarentee you that you will not only learn more about Islam but you will also discover the truth about your own belief that you have overlooked so far.

Most of what you wrote has already been discussed and answered in detail in various posts on various threads.

It is useless to agrue about others, if they sinned or not when we ourselves deny the sins we do on a regular basis and think no one has seen them, just a bit disbelief on our own part. As a Muslim we acknowledge that its only ourself that we will answer for when accountablity/ the Day of Judgement comes. As you don't believe so far on accountablity 'cause you belief Jesus has paid for your sins, you may not observe the same standards when it comes to truth vs falsehood.

There is no doubt for a true believer who submits to God alone, that:

God is One God.

God is not a male nor a female, not limited to a body form.

Everything and everyone other than God is His creation, none can become equal to God nor over power God.

God is not born, nor God dies.

God does not have sons, daughters, mother or a father, nor a wife nor a husband.

God does not have any needs nor wants.

God does not get tired, nor God grieves.

For God, nothing is difficult, nor anything out of God's reach, nor things go out of God's control.

God knows All, even the deepest secrects of the hearts.

God grants Power to whom God wills.

God does not incarnate into other forms, nor God take shape of one of His creatures whether be a human, an elephant, a monkey, a tree or so on.

God is Merciful and Forgiving, God Loves those who Obey and seek God's pleasure. For them God has said to have prepared Forgiveness for their mistakes and a reward beyond measure.

Now to answer to some of what you wrote, as I said most of it has already been discussed but I will briefly address some of what you wrote. You may have a good intention when writing them but you need to know truth about them, and not just repeating what you've heard from others.

You wrote: First we know that all authority on heaven and earth has been given to Christ (Matt 28:18).

Now that raises at leat two issues for me, 1- if you note the word "given" is the key. Given by who, of course who else can give, God Almighty. So there is a clear distinction between who can give or grant.

Now 2-"all authority" that seems a bit exaguration since we see verse in the Bible that show how much authority he was given for example when he said, "John 5:30 "By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me." Jesus according to this verse seeks pleasure of one who sent him, just like I as a Muslim do, seek pleasure of my maker, all of God's prophets were sent for this purpose to practice and teach to seek the pleasure of their maker.

Then further you wrote:

"Fourthly, Jesus intercedes for us, this He began to do before He left earth (John 17:1-26) This means that Jesus is praying for you now, today. Because He is all powerful He is able to turn His attention to all of us individually. He will continue this ministry as long as any of His people are on earth (John 17:20). "

You missed one point that is more common than that: "Jesus died for your sins" a line I hear more often from preachers. They quote John 2:1-2 "... he himself (Jesus) is the propitaion for our sins, and not for our sins only but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD"

Now contradictory to the above quote there are those i.e. Matthew 12:36-37 ³⁶But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. ³⁷For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."

Now to close I may add this verse from your trusted source that shows that to whom you call God, indead was a servant of God and shared the same and Only God as a Muslim I worship and serve to as well:

John 20:17 "'........I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

John 14:28 " ........the Father is greater than I"

And here is the confirmed truth:

The Quran 3:59 "Verily, in the sight of God, the nature of jesus is as the nature of Adam, whom He created out of dust and then said unto him, "Be" - and he is"

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 16 March 2009 at 6:53pm

The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

believer

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Points: 1397

Posted: 18 March 2009 at 7:11am

Shasta- good question

Matthew 28

¹⁸Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

If you read the Gospels you will notice that Jesus is always humble and never shows His power to make Himself greater then the Father, GOD.

Does all authority of heaven and earth include knowledge of the end of earth? Is there a reason why man should not know the date of the end of the earth?

Notice that authority does not always include knowledge- definition #5 does include it.

1.	the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.

2.	a power or right delegated or given; authorization: Who has the authority to grant permission?

3.	a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.

4.	Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government: They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.

5.	an accepted source of information, advice, etc.

6.	a quotation or citation from such a source.

7.	an expert on a subject: He is an authority on baseball.

8.	persuasive force; conviction: She spoke with authority.

9.	a statute, court rule, or judicial decision that establishes a rule or principle of law; a ruling.

10.	right to respect or acceptance of one's word, command, thought, etc.; commanding influence: the authority of a parent; the authority of a great writer.

11.	mastery in execution or performance, as of a work of art or literature or a piece of music.

12.	a warrant for action; justification.

13.	testimony; witness.

LOL!! honeto- Because the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One True GOD none of them can go against each other. GOD's WORD made flesh can not go against GOD's plan.

GOD is one so how can Jesus not do what GOD has given Him authority to do?

Muslims are trying to make Jesus a renegade partner to GOD, remember GOD is ONE.

His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

semar

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Posted: 18 March 2009 at 11:42am

believer wrote:

GOD is one so how can Jesus not do what GOD has given Him authority to do?

Muslims are trying to make Jesus a renegade partner to GOD, remember GOD is ONE.

If so Jesus was not god, he was a slave of God, he was messenger of God, he was a helper of God. That what Muslim always say. What kind of God, if he didn't have his own will. What kind of God if he just received authority from the higher God. What kind of God if he need approval from the other God. What kind of God if he didn't have absolute authority and absolute will. God should has absolute authority on everything, no need permission, no need approval, no need instruction, no need guideline from other authority.

Edited by icforumadmin - 18 March 2009 at 5:11pm

honeto

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Posted: 18 March 2009 at 2:21pm

believer wrote:

"If you read the Gospels you will notice that Jesus is always humble and never shows His power to make Himself greater then the Father, GOD. "

And that's all we have been trying to tell you, one that humbles (Jesus) to God is not God. You understand it through logic but bound to repeat others words that "he is also God".

Now that you spoke for yourself, you are very clear in your belief, that Jesus humbled himself to God. Now we all know that its only God that does not humble nor serve nor obey to anyone, but Jesus did as you acknowledge, but refuse to proclaim?

Hasan

The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down

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Posted: 18 March 2009 at 5:10pm

[QUOTE=believer]

Shasta- good question

Matthew 28

¹⁸Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

If you read the Gospels you will notice that Jesus is always humble and never shows His power to make Himself greater then the Father, GOD.

Does all authority of heaven and earth include knowledge of the end of earth? Is there a reason why man should not know the date of the end of the earth?

Notice that authority does not always include knowledge- definition #5 does include it.

1.	the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.

2.	a power or right delegated or given; authorization: Who has the authority to grant permission?

3.	a person or body of persons in whom authority is vested, as a governmental agency.

4.	Usually, authorities. persons having the legal power to make and enforce the law; government: They finally persuaded the authorities that they were not involved in espionage.

5.	an accepted source of information, advice, etc.

6.	a quotation or citation from such a source.

7.	an expert on a subject: He is an authority on baseball.

8.	persuasive force; conviction: She spoke with authority.

9.	a statute, court rule, or judicial decision that establishes a rule or principle of law; a ruling.

10.

right to respect or acceptance of one's word, command, thought, etc.; commanding influence: the authority of a parent; the authority of a great writer.

11.

mastery in execution or performance, as of a work of art or literature or a piece of music.

12.

a warrant for action; justification.

13.

testimony; witness.

LOL!! honeto- Because the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One True GOD none of them can go against each other. GOD's WORD made flesh can not go against GOD's plan.

GOD is one so how can Jesus not do what GOD has given Him authority to do?

Muslims are trying to make Jesus a renegade partner to GOD, remember GOD is ONE.

His word/expression He threw it away to Mary, and a Soul/Spirit from Him

[/QUOTE]

Believer, do you read what you post? If Jesus and God are one, how can Jesus make himself greater or lesser? How can Jesus make himself humble to God if he is God? Why would that even be necessary?

You ask: GOD is one so how can Jesus not do what GOD has given Him authority to do?

I ask, if God is One, why would God have to give Jesus authority to begin with?

It is not a question of whether or not man should have knowledge, it is a question of whether or not God can hide the knowledge of an event from Himself.

Muslims are not trying to make Jesus any type of partner to God, that is shirk, we make no partners with God, period. We are merely pointing out that Jesus, by his own words, was subservient to God, had no power other than what God gave him, deferred to God, and lacked knowledge that only God had.

�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt