Adam AS

Hello,

 

I'm new here so there is a lot I do not know regarding how Islam differs from my own beliefs. As I was reading over this thread yesterday a thought came to me: Assuming King David and the account of the battle between him (as a boy) and Goliath is accepted amongst Muslims then I believe it is significant that at "six cubits and a span" (roughly nine and a half feet) Goliath towered above everyone else and was considered a Giant.

 

Had mankind�s stature decreased "slowly" then a person nine and a half feet tall back in the days of David would not have been much of a giant.

 

This is just a random thought so take it for what it is worth... Is it not possible that the �sixty cubit� height is more figurative than literal? I know a lot of people who are GIANTS in my opinion... one of the biggest of them is a young girl who is physically only five foot two inches tall... but sixty cubits tall spiritually.

 

Always sincere.... sometimes serious,

John B

 

786SalamKhan wrote: I'm not a Salafi who accepts anything and everything from Bukhari and Muslim. But since there are two I guess there is meaning to it. To be honest I originally believed Adam to be 60 cubits until I saw the claim of Imam Malik denying it. Although I cannot find evidence for this in Muwatta. I would first listen to the Four Imams(Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shafi and Ahmad ibn Hanbal) before Bukhari and Muslim. Muwatta is considered more authentic than Bukhari and Muslim. http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?93046-Is-Imam-Malik-s-Muwatta-more-authentic-than-Sahih-Bukhari So overall I do accept Adam being 60 cubits and the rest etc. http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?110103-Hadith-of-Adam-%28AS%29

TG12345 wrote: Assalamu Alaikum, 786SalaamKhan, Thank you for the response. So you do accept that Muhammad claimed that Adam was 60 cubits tall in Paradise and that since Adam's creation, people have been decreasing in size continuously until the coming of Muhammad? Bukhari (4) Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall. When He created him, He said to him, "Go and greet that group of angels, and listen to their reply, for it will be your greeting (salutation) and the greeting (salutations of your offspring." So, Adam said (to the angels), As-Salamu Alaikum (i.e. Peace be upon you). The angels said, "As-salamu Alaika wa Rahmatu-l-lahi" (i.e. Peace and Allah's Mercy be upon you). Thus the angels added to Adam's salutation the expression, 'Wa Rahmatu-l-lahi,' Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure). People have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation.  (Book #55, Hadith #543) Bukhari (8) Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam in his complete shape and form (directly), sixty cubits (about 30 meters) in height. When He created him, He said (to him), "Go and greet that group of angels sitting there, and listen what they will say in reply to you, for that will be your greeting and the greeting of your offspring." Adam (went and) said, 'As-Salamu alaikum (Peace be upon you).' They replied, 'AsSalamu-'Alaika wa Rahmatullah (Peace and Allah's Mercy be on you) So they increased 'Wa Rahmatullah' The Prophet added 'So whoever will enter Paradise, will be of the shape and form of Adam. Since then the creation of Adam's (offspring) (i.e. stature of human beings is being diminished continuously) to the present time."  (Book #74, Hadith #246)   Muslim (2) Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created adam in His own image with His length of sixty cubits, and as He created him He told him to greet that group, and that was a party of angels sitting there, and listen to the response that they give him, for it would form his greeting and that of his offspring. He then went away and said: Peace be upon you! They (the angels) said: May there be peace upon you and the Mercy of Allah, and they made an addition of" Mercy of Allah". So he who would get into Paradise would get in the form of Adarn, his length being sixty cubits, then the people who followed him continued to diminish in size up to this day.  (Book #040, Hadith #6809) Thanks and Allahma3k.

786SalaamKhan wrote: Wa Alaikum, I already answered: "So overall I do accept Adam being 60 cubits and the rest etc."

Alaikum salaam, SalaamKhan.

You did say that, I am sorry I missed it.

Are you aware that the height of people in Europe between the middle of the first century and the 7th century (when Muhammad began preaching)
fluctuated and significantly increased at times- like between the fourth and sixth century? Although people in Europe in the 7th century were shorter than people in the 6th century, they were in fact taller than those living in the 1st and 3th centuries.

http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/uni/wwl/koepke_baten_twomillennia.pdf

I am unaware of stats for Africa or Asia or the Americas or other parts of the world, but historical evidence shows that in some parts of the Europe, instead of continuously decreasing in stature from the beginning of time to the time of Muhammad, the growth of people fluctuated between the 1st and 7th century and have for the most part been on the rise.

Scroll to page 13 to see the table showing human height between the 1st and 18th centuries AD.

How would you reconcile this data with Muhammad's statement that people have been decreasing in size between the creation of the world and the 7th century AD?





Edited by TG12345 - 20 January 2013 at 4:55pm

786SalamKhan wrote: I'm not a Salafi who accepts anything and everything from Bukhari and Muslim. But since there are two I guess there is meaning to it. To be honest I originally believed Adam to be 60 cubits until I saw the claim of Imam Malik denying it. Although I cannot find evidence for this in Muwatta. I would first listen to the Four Imams(Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shafi and Ahmad ibn Hanbal) before Bukhari and Muslim. Muwatta is considered more authentic than Bukhari and Muslim. http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?93046-Is-Imam-Malik-s-Muwatta-more-authentic-than-Sahih-Bukhari So overall I do accept Adam being 60 cubits and the rest etc. http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?110103-Hadith-of-Adam-%28AS%29

Assalamu Alaikum, 786SalaamKhan,

Thank you for the response.

So you do accept that Muhammad claimed that Adam was 60 cubits tall in Paradise and that since Adam's creation, people have been decreasing in size continuously until the coming of Muhammad?

Bukhari

(4) Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall. When He created him, He said to him, "Go and greet that group of angels, and listen to their reply, for it will be your greeting (salutation) and the greeting (salutations of your offspring." So, Adam said (to the angels), As-Salamu Alaikum (i.e. Peace be upon you). The angels said, "As-salamu Alaika wa Rahmatu-l-lahi" (i.e. Peace and Allah's Mercy be upon you). Thus the angels added to Adam's salutation the expression, 'Wa Rahmatu-l-lahi,' Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure). People have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation.  (Book #55, Hadith #543)


Bukhari

(8) Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam in his complete shape and form (directly), sixty cubits (about 30 meters) in height. When He created him, He said (to him), "Go and greet that group of angels sitting there, and listen what they will say in reply to you, for that will be your greeting and the greeting of your offspring." Adam (went and) said, 'As-Salamu alaikum (Peace be upon you).' They replied, 'AsSalamu-'Alaika wa Rahmatullah (Peace and Allah's Mercy be on you) So they increased 'Wa Rahmatullah' The Prophet added 'So whoever will enter Paradise, will be of the shape and form of Adam. Since then the creation of Adam's (offspring) (i.e. stature of human beings is being diminished continuously) to the present time."  (Book #74, Hadith #246)
 

Muslim

(2) Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created adam in His own image with His length of sixty cubits, and as He created him He told him to greet that group, and that was a party of angels sitting there, and listen to the response that they give him, for it would form his greeting and that of his offspring. He then went away and said: Peace be upon you! They (the angels) said: May there be peace upon you and the Mercy of Allah, and they made an addition of" Mercy of Allah". So he who would get into Paradise would get in the form of Adarn, his length being sixty cubits, then the people who followed him continued to diminish in size up to this day.  (Book #040, Hadith #6809)

Thanks and Allahma3k.

786SalamKhan wrote: Wa Alaikum, I don't know what to think about the growing shorter hadith it's unlikely and only likely that humans are large in Paradise as there are hadith which say that man will be 60 cubits like Adam was in Paradise. To get a direct quote from Imam Malik would have to be in his book Muwatta which do not have possess or have access to. The other scholars were more concerned with Fiqh(Law) hadith rather than theology hadith. Allah knows best.

Salaam Alaikum,

Why do you think the people growing shorter hadith is unlikely? It is reported twice in Sahih Bukhari. Most of the same hadiths that say people will resemble Adam in stature in paradise say that people have been decreasing in stature from Adam's removal from Paradise up to now. They come from Abu Huraira.

Why would you accept one part of the hadith and deny the other?

Do you have any proof that these hadiths are not the authentic words of Muhammad?

(4) Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall. When He created him, He said to him, "Go and greet that group of angels, and listen to their reply, for it will be your greeting (salutation) and the greeting (salutations of your offspring." So, Adam said (to the angels), As-Salamu Alaikum (i.e. Peace be upon you). The angels said, "As-salamu Alaika wa Rahmatu-l-lahi" (i.e. Peace and Allah's Mercy be upon you). Thus the angels added to Adam's salutation the expression, 'Wa Rahmatu-l-lahi,' Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure). People have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation.  (Book #55, Hadith #543)



(8) Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam in his complete shape and form (directly), sixty cubits (about 30 meters) in height. When He created him, He said (to him), "Go and greet that group of angels sitting there, and listen what they will say in reply to you, for that will be your greeting and the greeting of your offspring." Adam (went and) said, 'As-Salamu alaikum (Peace be upon you).' They replied, 'AsSalamu-'Alaika wa Rahmatullah (Peace and Allah's Mercy be on you) So they increased 'Wa Rahmatullah' The Prophet added 'So whoever will enter Paradise, will be of the shape and form of Adam. Since then the creation of Adam's (offspring) (i.e. stature of human beings is being diminished continuously) to the present time."  (Book #74, Hadith #246)

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=cubits&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all


Not trying to be aggressive or rude or anything, I am just surprised you reject a hadith that has been recorded in Bukhari, which allegedly is the most accurate depiction of Muhammad's words.

I found this interesting article on livingislam.org I am curious what you think of it.

Weak Hadiths in Sahih al-Bukhari?

by GF Haddad

Ibrahim ibn Ma'qil said: I heard Muhammad ibn Isma'il al-Bukhari say: "I was with Ishaq ibn Rahuyah when a man said: 'Why don't you compile an epitome (mukhtasar) of the prophetic ways?' This stayed with me, and was the reason why I compiled this book (the Sahih)." Al-Dhahabi said: "It has been narrated through two firm channels of transmission that al-Bukhari said: 'I extracted this book from about 600,000 (sound) hadiths, and I compiled it over sixteen years, and I made it a plea for what lies between myself and Allah.'" Al-Firabri said: Muhammad ibn Isma'il said to me: "I never included in the Sahih a hadith except I made a major ablution (ghusl) and prayed two rak'at beforehand."

Al-Nawawi said: "The scholars have agreed that the soundest of all hadith compilations are the two Sahihs of al-Bukhari and Muslim, and their vast majority have agreed that the soundest and most beneficial of the two was al-Bukhari's " He continued: "The totality of its hadiths are 7,275 with the repetitions and about 4,000 without."

In his Kitab al-Tatabbu', al-Daraqutni argues for the weakness of 78 hadiths in al-Bukhari, 100 in Muslim, and 32 in both based on isnad and matn criticism.

Al-Nawawi said: "The two Sahihs differ from all other books only in respect to the fact that what is in them is sahih and does not require investigation." Ibn al-Salah said: "Whatever only al-Bukhari or only Muslim narrates enters [also] into the category of what is definitely sahih... except a few letters which some of the expert critics objected to, such as al-Daraqutni and others - and these are known to the specialists." He said this after stating that what they agree upon is "definitely sahih" (maqtu'un bisih.h.atihi) for the Umma. Imam al-Nawawi objected to the terms "definitely sahih" while granting all that is in the Sahihayn the level of "strongly presumed [sahih] until it becomes mutawatir" (yufidu al-zanna ma lam yatawatar) as is the rule with all sahih lone-narrated (ahad) hadiths. But Ibn Kathir differed: "I am with Ibn al-Salah in his conclusion and directives, and Allah knows best." Al-Suyuti in Tadrib al-Rawi cites Ibn Kathir's words verbatim then states: "And this is also my choice and none other." This is because of the standing of the two Sahihs in the Umma and because none of the past Imams in Islam ever declared explicitly and rightly that all they had gathered in their respective books was sahih except al-Bukhari and Muslim, and the verifying experts have confirmed their claim. Al-Suyuti also states:

Shaykh al-Islam said: "What al-Nawawi mentioned in Sharh Sahih Muslim is based on the perspective of the majority (al-aktharin); as for that of the verifying authorities (al-muhaqqiqun), then no. For the verifying authorities also agree with Ibn al-Salah."

By "Shaykh al-Islam" al-Suyuti means the spotless Hafiz and immaculate Imam Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani and his book al-Nukat 'ala Ibn al-Salah. Al-Suyuti goes on to quote in detail - mostly from Hadi al-Sari - the refutations of Ibn Hajar to al-Daraqutni's criticism, showing that, in effect, the latter fails to invalidate the view of the Sahihayn as 100% sahih.

The fact is that they are all sahih but not all of them reach the same high degree of sahih. This is in essence what al-Dhahabi concluded concerning the few narrators of the Sahihayn whose grading was questioned: "The narration of one such as those, does not go below the rank of hasan which we might call the lowest rank of the sahih." Shaykh Abu Ghudda comments in the margin: "This is an explicit confirmation that al-Bukhari and Muslim did not confine themselves, in the narrations of their respective books, only to narrate hadiths that have the highest degree of sihha." Then again in his appendix (p. 144) he states:

Our Shaykh, the 'Allama Ahmad Shakir - Allah have mercy on him - stated: "The truth without doubt among the verifiers of those who have knowledge of the sciences of hadith... is that the hadiths of the two Sahihs are all sahih and there is not in a single one of them a cause for true [technical] disparagement or weakness. What al-Daraqutni and others criticized is only on the basis that it did not reach the high criterion which each of them defined in their respective books. As for the [criterion of] soundness (sihha) of the hadiths in themselves, then both of them lived up to it.

Dr. Badi' al-Sayyid al-Lahham in his edition of Ibn Kathir's al-Ba'ith al-Hathith (p. 44-45) also closes the discussion on the topic of the Sahihayn with the same words but without attributing them to Shakir. Abu Ghudda concludes (p. 145): "All these texts show that most of what is in Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim is of the highest degree of the sahih, and that some of what is in them is not of the highest degree of the sahih." More to the point, our teacher Dr. Nur al-Din 'Itr said in his manual Manhaj al-Naqd fi 'Ulum al-Hadith: "The ruling concerning the hadiths of the two Sahihs is that they are all sahih." All those mentioned above - Ibn al-Salah, al-Nawawi, al-Dhahabi, Ibn Kathir, Ibn Hajar, al-Suyuti, Ahmad Shakir, Abu Ghudda, 'Itr, al-Lahham - agreed on the fact that all of what is in al-Bukhari and Muslim is sahih, and, apart from al-Nawawi's duly recorded dissent, the muhaqqiqun such as Ibn al-Salah, Ibn Kathir, Ibn Hajar, and al-Suyuti consider all the hadiths contained in them maqtu'un bisihhatihi i.e. of the same probative force as mutawatir hadith. Further examination of the positions of the major hadith Masters might add more names to this distinguished list.

The questions are sometimes asked (1) whether all the Ulema of Hadith agree that all the hadiths in al-Bukhari and Muslim are sahih or (2) if there are any scholars who consider them to contain some weak narrations, and (3) whether one who believes that "the Sahihayn are not 100% sahih" is an innovator. As was just shown, some of the greatest hadith authorities such as Ibn al-Salah, Ibn Kathir, and al-Suyuti answered yes to the first question. Imam al-Haramayn (Ibn al-Juwayni) said that if a man swore on pains of divorce that all that is in al-Bukhari and Muslim is sahih his marriage would be safe. But Imam al-Daraqutni said a small number may not reach that level so the answer to the second question has to be yes. Yet the objections were refuted one by one by Ibn Hajar at the beginning of Fath al-Bari and Imam al-Nawawi at the beginning of Sharh Sahih Muslim. The short formula "whether the Sahihayn are or not 100% sahih" remains tenuous and misleading, for the Umma far and wide - meaning the Consensus of the Fuqaha' generation after generation - have been satisfied that they are.

This conclusion excludes the chainless, broken-chained reports, or unattibuted reports sometimes adduced by al-Bukhari in his chapter-titles or appended to certain narrations. An example of the latter is the so-called "suicide hadith" - one of al-Zuhri's unattributive narrations (balaghat) which is actually broken-chained and therefore weak. It does not meet the criteria of hadith authenticity used by the lesser and greater hadith Masters, much less that of al-Bukhari who mentioned it only to show its discrepancy with two other chains whose versions omit the attempted suicide story, and Allah knows best.

The above conclusion is proof that the position that everything that is found in the two Sahihs is rigorously sound refers only to full-chained reports positively attributed to the Prophet , and Allah knows best.

http://www.livingislam.org/k/whb_e.html

Edited by TG12345 - 19 January 2013 at 8:45pm