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minuteman 
Senior Member
Joined: 25 March 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 1642
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 Posted: 19 June 2008 at 6:56am |
No I do not think that Isa or Mehdi will be elected by people. I said that Dr. Israr is propounding some unusual way of establishing Khilafah which I do not understand. He is talking about it. If any one understands then he/she should explain it to us. Maudoodi sahib did not try to do that.
I do not say that Hazrat Eisa a.s. will be elected prime minister by democratic methods. But I know that Khalifah is made by Allah. No man make any one a Khalifah with the will of Allah. A Khalifah is always made by Allah.
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UmerSultan
Starter
Joined: 25 May 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6
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Posted: 19 June 2008 at 6:16pm |
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Assalam-o-Alaikum brother,
Hazrat Esa and Imam Mehdi, neither of these figures need to be chosen via any means. Democrat, Communist, Socialist, Dictatorship or even ways our Khulafa did.
These 2 figures are already appointed as Khalifas by God as in Quran. Islamic Republic of Iran's Constitution also clearly says that their government and constitution is legal until Imam Mehdi arrives. Then their leader will give their allegiance to Imam Mehdi.
Imam mehdi will give the leadership to Hazrat Jesus, when Jesus Christ is going to return. So there is no question or confusion about their leadership chances.
On the other hand, ruling muslims in present circumstances, enforcing Islam in the Muslim Lands, and enforcing Shariah in the lands of Muslims will neither be done by some Angel or by someone sent from Heaven.
Hazrat Abu Bakar was a human like us,
Hazrat Umer was like us
Usman was like us
Ali was like us
Umer bin Abdul Azziz was like us
and many others were like us
Some of them were companions of Noble Prophet SAW, some Tabieen, others Taba Tabieen and few nothin, for example, Tipu Sultan, Aurenzeb Alamgir, Salahuddin Ayubi just to name a few.
To have an Islamic State we have to find a way to implement Islam. Which ensures that all Islamic laws are being implemented.
Basic Political structure ones:
1] Right of Political Opposition and Questioning of the Government, even Islamic Government by any ordinary citizen regardless of his faith. (Khilafah of Umer Khattab and examples of Prophet Muhammed himself being questioned, which he did not mind at all). (and that Hazrat Ali for 6 months didn't give his vote, his allegiance to Caliph Abu Bakar, which he lobbied Hazrat Ali for those 6 months.)
2] Freedom of Religion and State organized spreading of virtue and diminishing the evil
3] Non Muslim being allowed to have freedom of Civil Posts, even as Judges of Civil law, and many others. (Jewish Maimanoide of Muslim Spain)
4] Women (Muslim and Non Muslim) being allowed to work freely, with out any harassment or discrimination, to own business or property, or to become an entrepreneur. (Hazrat Khadija)
and many others. Many of this is not being done in any Muslim country, not even Saudi Arabia. The closest one is Iran. Which people refuse to accept and recognize becoz it is a "Shia" state.
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UmerSultan
Starter
Joined: 25 May 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6
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Posted: 19 June 2008 at 6:35pm |
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Brother is Khalifa appointed by Allah or not is a very important issue. Many Muslims don't understand the importance. It is a very critical issue.
1]IF Khalifa is being appointed by God, then that means God didn't want a Khalifa after Umer bin Abdul Aziz and since then He doesn't want Muslims to have a Khalifa.
If that is true then, we Muslims don't need to do anything and there is not point, becoz God himself is responsible, just like He is responsible of Taking and giving of Life.
NOW
If Khalifa is in our lands, in the hands of people. THEN
It is our responsibility to implement islam in our countries.
NOW LETS SEE
On the death bed Hazrat Muhammed SAW answered to the question of Muslim leadership that you know your people, I am sure you willl chose a person who is eligible for this post.
People chose Abu Bakar, Hazrat Ali and Umer as a close advisor with other important Sahaba.
Then Abu Bakar gave leadership to Umer
Then Umer at his ending days said:
I have 2 options. (1) Do what Muhammed SAW did. Leave Muslims without a leader and leave it on the PEOPLE to chose, as WE DID. (2) Do what Abu Bakar did, appoint a person after me.
But I will to something different.
(3) I will make a counsel who are eligible for this post. Then chose one from them.
He gave a detailed description of each 6 possible Caliphs. And through, what now we call Democratic Process because of lack of term for that process, Hazrat Usman was selected, with the vote of the Counsel and by the people.
Also during Abu Bakar's struggle to Unite Muslims, H. Umer gave a speech about how Ansars are better than Muahjireen from the verses of Quran and then gave his arguments that leadership should go to companions which are muhajirin in the interest of Islam and Muslims.
At the end it WE THE PEOPLE WHO DECIDE.
BUT there is one hadith, which is something like this:
Do not curse you leaders, for God appoints them over you because of you actions.
AT THE END:
It is indeed God to whom everything belongs but it is God given Free will to mankind that takes certain decisions for themselves.
It is that exercise of Free Will that we have to appoint the Vicegerent of God on God's Earth. That we have to abide by the rules of God through our God given Free Will.
As beautifully explained by Maulana Mawdudi in his writings about Free Will.
So Islamic Democracy is what then:
Government by The People, for the People according to the laws of Islam. Where People are human being, the creation of Allah, and that they are Law abiding Muslims and active in the civil process.
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minuteman
Senior Member
Joined: 25 March 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 1642
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Posted: 20 June 2008 at 12:21am |
Most of what you have said is correct. I cannot do any better. Please remember that in the election of Hazrat Abu bakr, the will of Allah was there. Also Hazrat Umarand Uthman and Ali were made Khalifah by the will of allah.
When I say that Khalifah is made by Allah, it means that it the people who act /decide but the will of Allah is workingbehind them. I do not mean that only Allah does all Himself. That should be understood.
But there is another angle too. If the people (Like dr. Israr sahib) get together and try to establish Khilafat in the land, they cannot do it without the will of Allah. As you said, the people must be fit (Muttaqueen, Saliheen) to carry the burden of the Khilafat. If they are not fit then theycannot even keep the Khilafat going. The Khilafat gets lost by them and their bad works.
I do not blame or curse any one. I just stated that Khalifah is made by Allah and not by the will of the people only. Thanks for your good remarks. I hope you knew that maudoodi sahib criticised Hadhrat uthman r.a. in his book for malpractices. That was not good. Hadhrat Uthman was a victim of the bad activities of the Ibne saba group. The criminals got him killed in the capital (Madinah).
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UmerSultan
Starter
Joined: 25 May 2008
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 6
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Posted: 20 June 2008 at 8:42pm |
You know brother, I understand what you saying and neither was I trying to oppose you. But when People say "Will of Allah" it sounds like mankind has no job to do.
You know like Hizb Tahrir (HT) people say Kalifah is appointed by Allah. But then it gets confusing and one can have a non stop lenghty debate.
What do you mean when you say Kahilfah is appointed by Allah. I mean does that only Applies to Caliph and not to President, Dictator, King, Sultan etc?
Yes as Sahaba were Human being they did something as they were not suppose to do and Khilafat of Hazrat Usman was one of it. Even though it was Saba's evil plan to divide the ummah but the measures Hazrat Usman took as a Caliph were too lenient.
Any way, the most important point is not repeating the history and learning from our history, which we muslims are not being told to do. I have seen people on the internet talking about having Zero Body guards for the Leader of the state, whatever you call it Caliph President whatever. The reason being given becoz Khulafa Rashideen didn't have one. Well 3 out of 4 were murdered. And that is very significant when it comes to the political stability of a State.
You are absolutely correct. People who say that we should bring Khilafah back. Well there is no Back. We can't bring our past in our lives back. We have work with present technologies and present ideals and attitudes of People to bring Islam back.
If Islam is implemented then our lives will be better it doesn't matter whether it is through Islamic Democracy or Kingship.
Wassalam
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Sign*Reader
Senior Member
Joined: 02 November 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 3352
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Posted: 21 June 2008 at 1:07pm |
 UmerSultan wrote:
He gave a detailed description of each 6 possible Caliphs. And through, what now we call Democratic Process because of lack of term for that process, Hazrat Usman was selected, with the vote of the Counsel and by the people.
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Electoral College-- Caliph Umar ra was centuries ahead with the concept! He tried to break the mold of tribalism but alas that wasn't taken to heart by the people!
Edited by Sign*Reader - 21 June 2008 at 1:37pm
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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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seekshidayath
Senior Member
Female
Islam
Joined: 26 March 2006
Location: India
Status: Offline
Points: 3357
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Posted: 21 June 2008 at 6:36pm |
UmerSultan wrote:
We have work with present technologies and present ideals and attitudes of People to bring Islam back.
If Islam is implemented then our lives will be better it doesn't matter whether it is through Islamic Democracy or Kingship.
Wassalam
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Very true brother. We need to start up and implement Islam, individually , with ourselves first. It shud n't matter if it is thru Democracy or else.
If am not wrong, Dr.Israr Ahmed sahab very much stresses over the establishment of Islamic democracy. He advices to start up from self and then spread over. Probably he lectured it over the topic, 'Rabb ka nizaam --- ".
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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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gappub
Starter
Joined: 18 June 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 7
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Posted: 22 June 2008 at 8:30am |
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i think that difference between two scholars is a mostly political systems.
A slogan of Jamaat is to bring Islam via democracy. whereas Mr. Israar is absolutely against current form of democracy.
In fact, we have been completely brainwashed in a way that we see only two systems in this world Democracy or dictatorship, beside the fact that democracy has failed to prove itself as a successful system in third world but it has established a fear of dictatorship in minds of people
democracy is a weapon to blackmail poor country leaders to obey U.S.
I see only one prime minister ever who was loyal to pakistan was Mohamad khan junejo. he forced cut expenses, started a free schooling system. and finaly he was thrown away. Why ? because our democracy does not afford education. If people will be educated, they wall start to think and it is bad for democracy and ruthless form of capitalism.
where Jamaat is concerned, Jamaat has always been in the democretic poltical process of pakistan but it has completely failed to win hearts and minds of people. Based on their past 60 years performance, i do not see in future that they will ever be able to make any progress. beside these facts, they insist to remain in the competetion. Why ?
There is no doubt that they have some vote bank and due to this vote bank, they get some seats in parliment. probably these seats are sufficient for cream of Jamaat to be satisfied...
Is it all Jamaat is for ?
I think that Jamaat should immediately leave its ties with current politics and should indulge itself in the process of change. Change towards Islamic system.
Please forgive me if i wrote anything wrong.
May Allah forgive us all.
JazakAllah.
fee amaan Allah.
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Maulana Maududi and Dr. Israr Ahmad