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The essence of disbelief
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H3OO View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Sign*Reader Sign*Reader wrote:

Originally posted by H3OO H3OO wrote:

Originally posted by Sign*Reader Sign*Reader wrote:

Not only did Qadiyanis broke relations and transactions with Muslims in their speeches and writings, but they did so in practice as hundreds of thousands of Muslims had reported. They made an independent nation of themselves refusing to pray or intermarry with Muslims.

Ref. Abu'l Ala Mawdudi




i'll only answer this here;
what their views on this are that it were the muslims 1st who not only finished all their relations, transactions with them, but muslims also find it bad to eat with them, bad mouthed their prophet and khalifa, called them to have stemmed from the Brit govt or a plan of the jews, prosecuted them if they were found praying in any muslim mosque, or if they called themselves muslims, or if they propagated the islamic teachings openly or  used the word islam with them, etc, so their response is pretty much.
 natural.

inorder not to hijack this thread, the issue related to seal of prophet and prophet after Hazrat Muhammad [pbuh] is tackled in the following thread (from ahmedis point of view)

Seal of prophets - Khataman Nabiyyeen
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13211&PN=1





You are well advised- stop digging when in a hole!
Pleading on behalf of the impostor Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is fruitless. The book on his treasonous claim has been closed for some times now! Just like the Nation of Islam has no recognition as part of the Ummah so are the Ahmedis why waste more time on it!

If you can't refute all the items stated in my post, just forget it!
This IC is no place for proselytizing for your Qadiani crap!

The Anglo Saxon vultures who protected him and his votaries are still hovering over the Ummah that need to be taken care ofWink
[/QUOTE]

seems like i hit a nerve there. clam down sir. U need to think, thats what u are not doing.

u have not yet clear whats  so harmful/degrading/abusive about ahmedis interpretation mentioned in Seal of prophets thread (if u have read that).


May Allah open ur mind. amen


Edited by H3OO - 21 September 2008 at 1:49am
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Angel View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Contrary to what scholars say about "disbelief" (Kufr), I've come to the personal conclusion that disbelief is socially determined. with the right conditions and the wrong (negative) experiences this can turn someone who once believes something whoheartedly to being an opponet of that former belief. After reading the books by Ibn Waraaq (author of Why I am not Muslim) and others who are borderline I've found what they all have in common are the social influences in their respective upbringings. Being brought up in predominantly Muslim societies and them encountering some of the injustices in their country has conditioned them to question their faith in their adult lives. This gets to the boiling point where thy eventually forsake their faith and act against it.
 
Some have had such bad experiences to where they debelieve in the religion and God altogether. It's funny I remember talking with an intern at my clinic i work at and asked him "Why he wanted to become a physician" his response was "because my parents wanted me to." I found a similar behavior in other monotheistic religions. Kids don't have a choice to know truth nor experience truth from falsity they grow up believing because it is forced and if they forsake it they are cast out. So, from my readings on these authors what this boils down to is for one to forsake a religion is to commit cultural treason, versus one who is culturally patriotic. It has less become about rejecting God than rejecting a cultural tradition.
 
I know Islam, Judaism, and Christianity are not practiced today primarily for spiritual reasons (generally speaking) but because the aprents influenced it upon their children. How do I know? I'm a by-product of that. I grew up in the church, went to church, and believed what everyone else did until I started thinking for myself and examining different faiths. Although my experiences weren't totally negative I know that with the right conditions I could either continue believing what I believe forever or forsake it because of some tragic event(s).
 
I know for a fact Muslim Scholars ar enot psychologist therefore they are not equipped to answer the social conditions of disbelief so they answer in accordance to how a theologian would answer. Is this the best kind of advice for any monotheistic faith? No, at least not for all circumstances. Sometimes telling someone whose faith is faltering to pray to God is not the best advice. One needs to examine the social conditions on why this individual is starting to lose faith this is equivalent to telling an alcoholic to stop drinking (on their own) because its bad for them. Unfortunately these authors didn't have that particular guidance and consequently, end up disbelieving in God and religion altogether.
 
The essence of disbelief is not always steming from social. I don't necessarily disagree with your assesment I do agree that some people are in that arena, but disbeliving or turning away from a religion is not always from a negative event or social conditions. A lot of people do turn away because it has something to do within themselves they are not being spiritually fulfilled and religion does not always particularly hold truth to or for a person. And some beliefs whatever they may be do not resonate with a person and/or their truth. People also change over time so their old beliefs systems are outdated. Of course some people will hold onto their beliefs systems right through life either because it resonates with them (therefore its their truth) or for fear of God.
 
For me the essence of disbelief doesn't always stem for social events but within the state of a person.
 
I know social, environment, upbringing, greatly determines what a person believes in but there is a part of me that feels that something inside helps determine a persons belief. Do we need outside influences to tell us that standing out in the sun we eventually get warm or standing out in the rain we will get wet?
 
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Israfil View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

. "True, there are many who convert, however a percentage of that ufortunately are vulnerable women (most primarily of Caucasian decent) who marry men from muslim countries who need visas. Some convert for sincere reasons, out of a desire to know God through the umbrella of Islam. Some convert because of a kind of cognitive dissonance (See Wafa Sultan)."
 
Israfil, 
 
You cannot with any certainty say that any woman converted to Islam simply to please a man. You do not know what is in that woman's heart.
People may come to any religion for different reasons, and there may be unfortunate white women who first become aware of Islam because they marry a Muslim who later does them wrong, but that does not mean that their acceptance of Islam is not sincere or that they do not want to be Muslims.
 
A blanket statement could be made that African Americans accept Islam because it is not the white man's religion. Not only is this as offensive as your statement, it denigrates the sincerity of the reverts intentions and insults their intelligence. Caucasian women accept Islam to please Middle Eastern men and African Americans accept Islam to thwart the white man... 
 
 
 
Then I guess the various Muslimahs whom I've spoken to here are wrong. Besides, I didn't say "all" I said a percentage, that could be 1% or 10% you don't know. I was referring to a particular group (one of many) who have converted for reasons other than themselves. As for African-Americans who convert the same rules apply. Some have converted to Islam because some have been taught that Islam is the closes thing to a human beings religion. Some convert as a way out of prison some convert out of sincerity. I'm pointing towards the varieties of why people convert and leave. If you don't like the comment don't read plain and simple, but it is the truth nonetheless.


Edited by Israfil - 21 September 2008 at 11:39am
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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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I have yet to read here that anyone posting here who reverted to Islam did not want to do so but did anyway for a man, or otherwise. I can't vouch for other reverts, but it took me a long time to actually do the Shahada, because I knew that once I did there would be no going back and my life as I knew it would change forever. It was not something I took lightly, in fact it was terrifying in some respects, because I knew what I was giving up.

I would venture to say that someone who reverts or converts to anything without truly wanting to in their heart, mind, and soul has not reverted/converted. They are merely paying lip service while believing something else. Which Muslimahs posting here would you say this of?
 
 
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Hayfa View Drop Down
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I think also one can ask about it form  how much depth of knowledge does a person have before doing the Shahada.. when I was deciding to do the Shahada I asked myself "do I believe there is no God, but Allah and Mohammed is his messenger."  I answered yes and well that was that. But was it to the level that I have now, of course not.
 
Some people may never asks themselves beyond that point.
 
I am sure there are some people who do "convert" to various religions for social reasons, marraige being one of them. Men and women alike. I would say it is quite small.
 
I would guess however that the number of athiests, self-proclaimed, will "convert" in order to marry.  I know a man who became a Muslim, at least nominally, in order to marry.
 
I would suspect if your heart is not into it, the road will be especially tough going as Islam is about discipline. It will come out in the end, and certainly in the after-life.
 
 


Edited by Hayfa - 23 September 2008 at 8:16pm
When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Israfil View Drop Down
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Hayfa,
 
"I woulssuspect if your heart is not into it, the road will be especially tough going as Islam is about discipline."
 
That is a good point. Perhaps the reason for the disbelief in part would be the lack/lost of discipline. But when discussing "born Muslims" or, Muslims who grow up in Muslim societies their discipline immediately comes from parents and then outward. This is why I was particularly interested in Ibn Warraq who, knew the Qur'an and memorized it at a young age only to later on in his life, be an opponent of Islam as well as religion in general.
 
"Which Muslimahs posting here would you say this of?"
 
I'm not trying to sound rude but I'm not concerned what's in your heart S.A. Like you and others about mine. I don't care what you say regarding your belief from the most beautiful thing to the most incriminating thing. what you say in regards to spirituality whether in love or disgust is between you and God. This is the beauty of my belief.
 
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"I'm not trying to sound rude but I'm not concerned what's in your heart S.A. Like you and others about mine. I don't care what you say regarding your belief from the most beautiful thing to the most incriminating thing. what you say in regards to spirituality whether in love or disgust is between you and God. This is the beauty of my belief."
 
 
If you don't care what is in people's hearts and minds why start a subject questioning what is in their hearts and minds?
 
Wait, could it be so that you can try and dazzle everyone with your  "philosophical" musings on what is wrong with Islam? Or just to reread the cleverness of your own words in print?
 
Not meaning to be rude here.
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Israfil View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

"I'm not trying to sound rude but I'm not concerned what's in your heart S.A. Like you and others about mine. I don't care what you say regarding your belief from the most beautiful thing to the most incriminating thing. what you say in regards to spirituality whether in love or disgust is between you and God. This is the beauty of my belief."
 
 
If you don't care what is in people's hearts and minds why start a subject questioning what is in their hearts and minds?
 
Wait, could it be so that you can try and dazzle everyone with your  "philosophical" musings on what is wrong with Islam? Or just to reread the cleverness of your own words in print?
 
Not meaning to be rude here.
 
 
Let me rephrase, I'm not concerned about your beliefs nor those beliefs concerning personal spirituality. Those are personal matters between you and God. Not sounding rude, but you are the last person to use sarcasm, last I checked you need to revamp your own thoughts.
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