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The essence of disbelief
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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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Points: 1930 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2008 at 12:57pm
. "True, there are many who convert, however a percentage of that ufortunately are vulnerable women (most primarily of Caucasian decent) who marry men from muslim countries who need visas. Some convert for sincere reasons, out of a desire to know God through the umbrella of Islam. Some convert because of a kind of cognitive dissonance (See Wafa Sultan)."
 
Israfil, 
 
You cannot with any certainty say that any woman converted to Islam simply to please a man. You do not know what is in that woman's heart.
People may come to any religion for different reasons, and there may be unfortunate white women who first become aware of Islam because they marry a Muslim who later does them wrong, but that does not mean that their acceptance of Islam is not sincere or that they do not want to be Muslims.
 
A blanket statement could be made that African Americans accept Islam because it is not the white man's religion. Not only is this as offensive as your statement, it denigrates the sincerity of the reverts intentions and insults their intelligence. Caucasian women accept Islam to please Middle Eastern men and African Americans accept Islam to thwart the white man... 
 


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 20 September 2008 at 1:01pm
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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minuteman View Drop Down
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Points: 1642 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minuteman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2008 at 12:59pm
 
 
  Thanks H300 and S*R for presenting your views. I found that para in which S*R equated the Qadiyanis with wafa Sultan and Salman Rushdie. I was surprised at the general knowledge of S*R. How could that be possible for any sensible man to do like that? I mean some people who do not denounce Islam, they do not abuse Quran and Sunnah. They are being made equal to those who are abusing Islam by lectures and writing books  e.g. Satanic Verses. That could never be possible.
 
 I am thankful to H300 too that he/she has taken notice and helped to correct the matter somehow. It is only a difference of opinion for which a community is being persecuted and abused. That could be the mistake of the common Muslim majority against a minority.
 
  I do not trust any government Fatwa against Qadiyanis. That is because the King Pharoah siad to Moses a.s. "Anta kafir". That you are Kafir. I will give correct words and reference from the Quran. So that is an official government Fatwa against hazrat Musa a.s. Will S*R believe it that hazrat Musa was a Kafir? Surely not.
 
 Again,  Qazi Shari'e gave fatwa against Hazrat Hussain a.s. that it was lawful to kill Hussain. (wajab ul Qatl). On top of that Fatwa writing was written the Bismillah too. That was a government document with Bismillah telling every one that Hussain was such ugly person that it was lawful to kill him.
 
  Therefore, government Fatwa has no value. The bigotted religious leaders try to get the help of the government to arrest and kill the men of God, like Isa a.s. was caught by the Jewish leaders with the help of Roman soldiers.
 
  I request S*R to withdraw his remarks about the Qadiyanis unless he has personal knowledge of their misconduct. We need to look into the claim of the hazrat Mirza Sahib Qadiyani. What was his claim. He being such a famous person, it should be found out what wa shis original claim. I feel that he did not claim to be a prophet in the beginning.


Edited by minuteman - 20 September 2008 at 1:11pm
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Gulliver View Drop Down
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I think I've read more in the last week than I have in last five years. Not pushing any 'religion' - just looking at various journeys from disbelief to belief..........     
 
C S Lewis (Hound of Heaven)
 
"The letters reveal a bruised and open heart that was thoroughly and painfully explored by the God Lewis came, reluctantly, to believe in.
Lewis can hurl his objections to religion at the patient Greeves without risking their friendship, as seen in one of the first letters between them to explore Christian ideas:
 

 
  [S]trange as it may appear I am quite content to live without beleiving (sic) in a bogey who is prepared to torture me forever and ever if I should fail in coming up to an almost impossible ideal�

As to the immortality of the soul, though it is a fascinating theme for day-dreaming, I neither beleive nor disbeleive (sic): I simply don�t know anything at all, there is no evidence either way. (VI, p.235).
 
That the man Yeshua or Jesus did actually exist, is as certain as that the Buddha did actually exist: Tacitus mentions his execution in the Annals. But all the other tomfoolery about virgin birth, magic healing, apparitions and so forth is on exactly the same footing as any other mythology. (VI, p.234).
 
�Terrible things are happening to me. The �Spirit� or �Real I� is showing an alarming tendency to become much more personal and is taking the offensive, and behaving just like God.� (VI, p.882). Something is slouching towards Bethlehem in Lewis�s mind�s eye! Furthermore, Lewis is awkwardly aware that he is not entirely in control of what is going on: �I can�t express the change better than by saying that whereas once I would have said �Shall I adopt Christianity�, I now wait to see whether it will adopt me: i.e. I now know there is another Party in the affair�that I�m playing poker, not Patience, as I once supposed.� (VI, p.887)."
 
 


Edited by Gulliver - 20 September 2008 at 1:33pm
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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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Religion may be myth. No one can be 100% sure until they have died, and then it is too late.
 
However, if you do believe that there is a God and that He has created us for a purpose that is bigger than this transitory and often cruel life, then you have faith that there is more. 
 
If you choose to follow the tenants of a religion to the best of your ability, without distortion or intentionally harming anyone along the way, then what evil have you brought forth into the world?
 
As a Muslim I do not smoke, drink, take drugs, fornicate, or charge interest. I try not to lie or give false witness and to conduct myself in public in a manner that is modest. I give charity and poor due, I strive to help others and I am part of a global community that strives in the same fashion.
Even if at the end we discover that it was all a fairy tale and God does not exist, what harm have I caused by living the way I am living and believing what I believe?
 
As for punishment from God, well, that's Newton's Third Law: For each action there is an equal an opposite reaction. Do we really think that people like Hitler, Saddam, etc... get away with their heinous acts without punishment equal to the crime or sin committed?
And there is always repentance and forgiveness: equal and opposite...
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Gulliver View Drop Down
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Hello Shasta
 
Beautiful faith life you have. I cannot fault you in any way for that or what you have said here, not that I'd even wish to :-)
 
You are right too. The whole concept of justice. The likes of Hitler etc etc.
 
Forgiveness is a profound matter indeed. I don't know about that on the grander scale. I did post that poem from the annymous inmate/s of Revensbruck concentration camp.
 
Prayer for Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
Lord, remember not only the men of good will, but also those of ill will. But do not remember all the suffering they have inflicted upon us. Remember rather the fruits we have brought, thanks to this suffering: our comradeship, our loyalty, our humility, the courage, the generosity, the greatness of heart that has grown out of this. And when they come to judgment, let all the fruits we have bourne be their forgiveness.
 
 
How a person can get from a place where they'd willingly have wished another dead, committed the act perhaps, given the 'right' circumstances - and seen that person 'burning in hell for ever and ever amen', ;-) to that place they'd pray forgiveness for that individual, and wish that person know peace in death and God's Light. I don't know how that works. I just know it does. And in forgivess is that deeper 'mystery' of healing and redemption. It's known to God alone - I am sure the very source of it all.
 
I do tend to 'focus' on the mercy and compassion of God, and ask it for all in this world when I pray, meself included :-) Somewhere it says, "mercy is greater than justice," or words like this. I don't believe it is a fairytale Shasta - not really. There is some firm faith/hope deep within - a hope that came from that profound experience of forgiveness and redemption, that just seemed to affirm, for me anyway, that there is a Good God/Allah, greater and bigger than all of it. Sometimes we meet 'God' in 'hell'. Or maybe I should say, 'God' meets us there. Maybe cause I grew up fearing God when there was absolutely no need to - that I feel it near 'blasphemous' to speak of God in a way that instills fear of God in anyone.
 
But that's just me and my own experience. I think with Lewis and the 'myth'ology. He is really trying to understand the myth - the reality behind/within the 'myth' as it reveals itself to him, in the context of the realities of his own life, through/after some very profound experience/s in that life - and beyond his ability to really rationalise or comprehend. Left in awe really. It is so much a mystery.
 
I don't know - but I believe. Can you rationalise that. Maybe one of the good docs will look at my head ;-) lol
 
"Blessed are those who do not see, yet believe."
 
"At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present we know partially; then we shall know fully, as we are fully known."
 
"So faith, hope, love remain, these three..........     but the greatest of these is love."  
 
 I am sure there are similar words of Muhammad somewhere too.
 
God bless you Shasta. Take care and good nite from Emerald Isle folks :-)
 
Salam
 
 
Allahu Akbar :-)
 
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minuteman View Drop Down
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 Beautiful advice/ post from S_A above.  Many thanks for helping, guiding  the wandering salesmen. The important point has been that by living that good life as a Muslim, you have not harmed any one and that is what is wanted from every one.
 
 One may think that the others can also do good without religion. But that is not possible without some union and collective effort. There is no such unity in Atheists. And why they will do anything good and what for? They are, as per their disbeliefs, heading into a blind alley.
 
 I stop here because I may be going in the wrong direction or may be hurting some one. Pardon.


Edited by minuteman - 20 September 2008 at 3:55pm
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Sign*Reader View Drop Down
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Originally posted by H3OO H3OO wrote:

Originally posted by Sign*Reader Sign*Reader wrote:

Not only did Qadiyanis broke relations and transactions with Muslims in their speeches and writings, but they did so in practice as hundreds of thousands of Muslims had reported. They made an independent nation of themselves refusing to pray or intermarry with Muslims.

Ref. Abu'l Ala Mawdudi




i'll only answer this here;
what their views on this are that it were the muslims 1st who not only finished all their relations, transactions with them, but muslims also find it bad to eat with them, bad mouthed their prophet and khalifa, called them to have stemmed from the Brit govt or a plan of the jews, prosecuted them if they were found praying in any muslim mosque, or if they called themselves muslims, or if they propagated the islamic teachings openly or  used the word islam with them, etc, so their response is pretty much.
 natural.

inorder not to hijack this thread, the issue related to seal of prophet and prophet after Hazrat Muhammad [pbuh] is tackled in the following thread (from ahmedis point of view)

Seal of prophets - Khataman Nabiyyeen
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13211&PN=1



[/QUOTE]

You are well advised- stop digging when in a hole!
Pleading on behalf of the impostor Mirza Ghulam Ahmed is fruitless. The book on his treasonous claim has been closed for some times now! Just like the Nation of Islam has no recognition as part of the Ummah so are the Ahmedis why waste more time on it!

If you can't refute all the items stated in my post, just forget it!
This IC is no place for proselytizing for your Qadiani crap!

The Anglo Saxon vultures who protected him and his votaries are still hovering over the Ummah that need to be taken care ofWink


Edited by Sign*Reader - 20 September 2008 at 4:01pm
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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minuteman View Drop Down
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  S*R, Thanks for upgrading the Qadiyanis to a better level i.e. Nation of Islam level. I hope you have realised that they did not belong to the salman Rushdie class or Wafa Sultan type. I was only interested that you should refrain from making highly derogatory claims about others. Still youhave not admitted and cleared the mis-information that you were trying to present on net.
 
There had been a famous program on English TV "Mind your language" That was interesting.
 
  You have quoted from Maudoodi. I had been a great Maudoodi fan. But he turned out to be mere political leader and a bigot. The Deobandis and the Brelvis all hated him and he was punished by the government too. To quote maudoodi about anything is not good and reliable. Whatever he said about anything is not true.
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