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The essence of disbelief

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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2008 at 1:15pm
I think Sign Reader gave you the answer you personally wanted to see. Each individual is different and what drives one may not drive another. Perhaps some of these converts are playing to what the Western audience wants to hear and perhaps not. There are those making money and those who live in obscurity.
 
I know an ex- Muslim who converted, he said that Islam was just too hard. He wanted to drink and have girlfriends and be able to do what he wanted when he wanted and still have the comfort of knowing he was "saved".
 
If you really want to know why Wafa Sultan left Islam and became such a vitriolic opponent, why not e-mail Wafa Sultan and ask her.
 
BTW: The KKK actually started as a religious group. Their roots are in Christianity: the burning crosses, white is righteous, black denotes evil, etc... so the comparison is valid.


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 19 September 2008 at 1:21pm
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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Gulliver View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gulliver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2008 at 1:38pm
Hello Israfil. I have no idea who this woman is you are all speaking about. Don't read me wrong. I am not 'laughing' at the seriousness in any of this.
 
It's just that sense of 'getting to know' someone, even through this internet. It was meeant in a humorous way to yourself.  Not any kind of judgement on this woman or what she might have done, or any of your serious comments on that behaviour.
 
I was telling a friend of mine about this place today. He is well read on many things, and I said he'd enjoy some of you. He is very disillusioned with 'clericalism' in the Catholic Church. That whole thing that seems to be more about empowering 'clerics' than the whole family of God - spritually. We are all gifted in one way or another, and should all be encouraged to use and share those gifts in the service of each other. I must tell him to register some time and let him decide for himself what he might like to contribute to. Many good people everywhere and maybe we all need to share what we have in common and help each other know our 'purpose in life'. We were talking today about young people. The pressures they are under and temptations to drink, drugs, sex and everything else.
 
There is a line in the Prophet Hosea of the OT. Only one I know. "My people perish for lack of knowledge." As true today as it was then.
 
I was telling him how Muslims call each other brother and sister, and seem to genuinely try and support each other. When I met my friend six months ago. First time I went to the mosque with him. There were others there from various parts of the world. Mostly Africa. Some beautiful souls, honest to God. They didn't have much - but what they had they shared. There was one man there who'd obviously been badly hurt in some kind of bomb incident. Only one foot. To see that man walk, and talk, and the smile on his face and light in his eyes was something to behold. True humility is like a lamp in the soul and he had it. I wonder if that is what it's really all about - trying to 'serve' each other - loving and supporting each other as we are able. No rocket science. I know it all seems a tad naieve and idealistic perhaps. But that little community is what it should be about. And I've seen it too in other 'religions'. What stops them all just coming together. Hmmmmmmmmmm.  I don't think I'll even try to go there.
 
God bless
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minuteman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote minuteman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2008 at 3:05pm
 
  S*R had equated Qadiyanis with Wafa Sultan and that fellow Warraq. I cannot believe it. Wafa has disowned and attacked the good things of Islam, say the Quran etc. Qadiyanis do not do that. Wafa has said good bye to Islam and has blamed Islam. I doubt if Qadiyanis have done such thing. Also to put Qadiyanis (Ahmadis) in the same chapter as Salman Rushie could not be true.
 
 Can any one explain the beliefs of the Qadiyanis by personal knowledge? Then we can assess their relation with Islam. It is well known that there was much ignorance in India (Muslims) when Qadiyanis emerged. There was hatred all around and infighting amongst sects. At the same time hatred for the English rulers and an under cover cry for Jihad. That was about 120 years ago.
 
 Does any one know about the real beliefs of the Qadiyanis who do not abuse the Quran and Islam. They may just be having a difefrence of opinion and  a different approach to religion. ( I cannot find that post now where S*R had blamed the Qadiaynis)


Edited by minuteman - 19 September 2008 at 3:11pm
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H3OO View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote H3OO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 September 2008 at 11:11pm
Minuteman i guess its upto Sign Reader to back up his statement with proves, to come with arguments that prove that qadianis are stemmed from brit Govt and that they abuse quran and and islam and only then we can research on those arguments and see what the real qadianis beliefs are. otherwise he is no different to the bigoted mullahs of today who are doing nothing but spreading hate towards other others, misconceptions against others.
Infact this is another reason, it is not the islam but the totally irrational interpretation of islam by these many not all scholars which makes people turn their beliefs, become frustrated, but still that no excuse as God has given everyone a mind/intellectual ability, so it is on them to use it before any conclusion.

And most of the people turning to islam are doing research of their own, trying to read and understand the quran themselves and not through any scholar, if they were to listen to  many islamic scholars, i dont think there will be many converters.


as i said before in apostacy thread, had i  believed in these scholars version of islam, i wouldve left islam a long way by now but Allah gave me the mind that everyones got which i used to get to real islamic teachings.


Edited by H3OO - 20 September 2008 at 12:41am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sign*Reader Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2008 at 1:42am
Originally posted by H3OO H3OO wrote:

Minuteman i guess its upto Sign Reader to back up his statement with proves, to come with arguments that prove that qadianis are stemmed from brit Govt and that they abuse quran and and islam and only then we can research on those arguments and see what the real qadianis beliefs are. otherwise he is no different to the bigoted mullahs of today who are doing nothing but spreading hate towards other others, misconceptions against others.
Mr. Osama for your information IC is a Ahle Sunnah site and if act like a moron on a subject not knowledgeable enough then watch watch what you say! There is no misconception or hate as regards to facts about Qadianism!
Read on:

The Qadiyanism
How the heretical beliefs of the Ahmadiya sect, who accept their founder Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet,  have put them outside the fold of Islam and left them designated as non-Muslims in Pakistan .

Being an independent non-Muslim minority is a natural and reasonable result of all that Qadiyanis chose for themselves. They caused and urged everything that result in making them a non-Muslim community. The first of which is their fabrication of the meaning of "the Last of Allah's apostles" by which they differed from all Muslims who believe in Mohammad (peace be upon him) as the Last Apostle and that there will be no apostles after him until the day of judgment takes place. This is the meaning which the Apostle's companions understood and derived from the following verse "Mohammad in not the father of any of your men, but the Apostle of Allah and the Last Apostle" (Sura Al-Ahzab verse 40). The Apostle's companions fought all those who pretended being apostles after the death of Mohammad (peace be upon him). And this was the meaning which Muslims understood from all the sources, and thus they did not and do not accept any one who pretends to be an apostle.

Qadiyanis only, and for the first time in the history of Muslims, interpreted the Quranic phrase "The Last of the Apostles" (*Malfuzal Ahmadiya by M.Manzur Ilahi pp.290*) to mean that Mohammad is the Apostle's stamp which certifies and signs other Apostle's Messages. What we have said can be proved by the texts quoted here from Qadiyanis books and essays. Here are three quotations.

--"The promised Christ (peace be upon him) said in his interpretation of `Khatamu Nabiyeen': what is meant is that no Prophet's message can be authorized and certified except by Mohammad's stamp. As every document is not accepted unless affirmed or confirmed by stamp and signature, so every message that is not confirmed by Mohammad's stamp is not true. (Malfuzal Ahmadiya edited by M.Manzur Ilahi pp.290)

--"We do not deny that Mohammad (peace be upon him) was the seal of prophets, but what the majority of people understand contradicts the greatness of the prophet (peace be upon him) since it leads to the conviction that the prophet had bereft his nation from Allah's greatest favour - prophets. What is meant by this phrase is that the prophet is the seal which confirms messages after his, so there will be no prophet if not affirmed by the holy prophet Mohammad. In this meaning only we do believe". (Al-Fadl, 22 Sept 1939)

--"The seal is the stamp, and if the holy prophet is the stamp, how can he be a stamp and no prophets to be confirmed". (Al-Fadl, 22 Sept 1923)

The differences between all Muslim and Qadiyanis are not limited to the explanation or the fabrication of one word "Khatem", but differences went to extremes since Qadiyanism claimed openly and frankly that not only one prophet is likely to appear after Mohammad (peace be upon him) but thousands of prophets. This is to be found in Qadiyani texts, some of which are the following "The rise of many new prophets is as clear a fact as the sun in midday". (The Reality Of Qadiyanism by Mirza Bashir Mahmud pp.228)

--"Muslims falsely claim that the sources of Allah ran out and no more prophets will appear. They do not justly estimate God. As for me, I say that not only one prophet may appear but thousands". (Anwar Khilafat by Mirza Bashir Mahmud pp. 62)

--"If a man sharpened swords close by my neck threateningly asking me to say that no prophet will appear after Mohammad(peace be upon him) I would say to him, you are a liar, it is right, there must be prophets after him". (Ibid. pp.65)

After Ghulam Ahmad had opened the way of messages and prophets, he pretended he was a prophet. Qadiyanis believed his pretense and accepted it completely. We quote here some of their declarations and sayings to witness to their deviations and fabrications as well as can be.

--"The promised Christ declared his claim to a Message and to be a prophet, as he wrote `I am a prophet and an apostle' (Al-Badr 5 Mar 1908), or as he also wrote `I am a prophet according to Allah's orders. If I deny this I am sinful. And If Allah calls me thus how can I deny it. I will stand by this claim until my death' (Letter to Akhbar Am by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad written three days before his death and published on his date of death i.e., 26 May 1908).

--"The characteristics Islam gives of the promised Christ means that is truly a prophet". (The Reality Of The Message by Mirza Bashir pp.174)

An essential element in all the persons who pretend to be prophets, is to charge those who do not believe in him with disbelief and refection of faith. This is exactly what Qadiyanis do in their congregational speeches and publications against Muslims who deny their pretense. I quote the following from their speeches:

--"All Muslims who do not swear fealty to Ghulam Ahmad are disbelievers, even if they have not heard his name". (Ayina Sadakat by Mirza Bashir Eddin pp. 35)

--"Every man who believes in Moses but not in Jesus Christ, in Mohammad but not in Ghulam Ahmad is not only a disbeliever, but in the deepest levels of rejection of faith". (Word Of Demarcation by Bashir Ahmad pp 110).

--"Since we believe in Mirza Ghulam Ahmad as a prophet, and all non-Ahmadis diebelieve in him, we consider non-Ahmadis disbelievers according to the Quranic verse which says that in one prophet is a rejection of the whole prophets".(Mirza Bashir Ahmad's article in Al-Fadl, 26 May 1922).

Qadiyanis not only say they are anti_muslim in Ghulam Ahmad's message but say that there are nothing to connect them with Muslims since their God, Islam, Quran prayer and fasting are unlike the Muslims.

Qadiyani caliph's speech published in Al-Fadl on 21 Aug 1927, under the title of `Advice for Students' explains to his followers the differences between Ahmadis and non-Ahmadis. He says "... Since the promised Christ said that their Islam, their God, and their pilgrimage are unlike ours, we always differ from them in every thing".

In Jul 30, 1931 Al-Fadl published another speech by the Qadiyani caliph in which he mentioned a dispute that ensued between two groups of Qadiyanis. One reasoned that since differences between Qadiyanis and Muslims are known, and the promised Christ has clarified them there is no need to establish independent Qadiyani schools: we can learn all undisputed matters in Muslim schools. The other group disagreed. While they were still arguing, the promised Christ himself entered and listened to their dispute. Then he gave his judgment saying: "It is wrong to say that we differ from Muslims only in the matter of Christ's death. We disagree with them in the wholeness of God, in the prophet, (peace be upon him), in the Quran, in prayer, in pilgrimage and in Al-Zakat. In short, he explained to them that we disagree quite completely with Muslims concerning all religious matters".

Qadiyanis themselves broke relations with Muslims in accordance with the great gap they had dug between them and Muslims. They organized themselves independently as if they were a non-Muslim minority as affirmed by their own writings.

--"The promised Christ made it clear that Ahmadis should not be led in prayer by a Muslim. Many letters come questioning this matter. My answer to them all is that no matter how many times you repeat the question I will answer that it is not right, not right, not right to be led in prayer by a non-Ahmadiyan". (Anwar Khilafat by Mirza Bashir Mahmud pp. 89)

--"We must neither believe in non-Ahmadiyan Islam, nor be led by them in prayer because in our opinion they are disbelievers in one of Allah's prophets". (Ibid. pp. 90)

--"If a non-Ahmadi's son died why we do not pray for him though he does not disbelieve in Ghulam Ahmad as the promised Christ! I myself ask those who have questioned me why we do not pray for the son of a Hindu or a Christian when they die....The non-Ahmadi's son is one of the non-Ahmadis and for this reason prayer for them is not right". (Ibid. pp.93)

--"The promised Christ was loathsome of an Ahmadiyan who wanted to let his daughter a non-Ahmadiyan. The man asked him many times but the promised Christ ordered him not to do so. Then the man allowed his daughter marriage after the death of the promised Christ so the caliph drove him away from his religious position and did not accept his penitence though the man repeated it many times until six years elapsed". (Ibid. pp. 93-94)

--"The promised Christ did not allow any transaction with Muslims except those permitted to be so with Christians and Jews. He distinguished us from Muslims in prayer, prohibited intermarriage with them, and prayer for their dead, so what is left to connect us with them? Interactions between people depend on two things and have two forms; a religious and a worldly transactions. The greatest means of religious transactions is to pray together and to intermarry. These two kinds are prohibited in our religion, and if you say that we are allowed to marry Muslim girls, I say that this applies to Christians, too. And if you question me why it is right to greet non-Ahmadis, my answer will be that according to a true prophet's Hadith he returned the greetings of Jews". (Word Of Demarcation published in Rioy av Religinter, pp. 69)

Not only did Qadiyanis broke relations and transactions with Muslims in their speeches and writings, but they did so in practice as hundreds of thousands of Muslims had reported. They made an independent nation of themselves refusing to pray or intermarry with Muslims.

Ref. Abu'l Ala Mawdudi

Infact this is another reason, it is not the islam but the totally irrational interpretation of islam by these many not all scholars which makes people turn their beliefs, become frustrated, but still that no excuse as God has given everyone a mind/intellectual ability, so it is on them to use it before any conclusion.
Your writing as clear as mud! Who is interpreting Islam here? The problem at hand started with Mirza G. Ahmed's interpretation of Quran!

And most of the people turning to islam are doing research of their own, trying to read and understand the quran themselves and not through any scholar, if they were to listen to  many islamic scholars, i dont think there will be many converters.
LOL what kind of converter are you talking about?

as i said before in apostacy thread, had i  believed in these scholars version of islam, i wouldve left islam a long way by now but Allah gave me the mind that everyones got which i used to get to real islamic teachings.
Good for you!






Edited by Sign*Reader - 20 September 2008 at 1:48am
Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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H3OO View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote H3OO Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2008 at 5:02am
Originally posted by Sign*Reader Sign*Reader wrote:

Not only did Qadiyanis broke relations and transactions with Muslims in their speeches and writings, but they did so in practice as hundreds of thousands of Muslims had reported. They made an independent nation of themselves refusing to pray or intermarry with Muslims.

Ref. Abu'l Ala Mawdudi




i'll only answer this here;
what their views on this are that it were the muslims 1st who not only finished all their relations, transactions with them, but muslims also find it bad to eat with them, bad mouthed their prophet and khalifa, called them to have stemmed from the Brit govt or a plan of the jews, prosecuted them if they were found praying in any muslim mosque, or if they called themselves muslims, or if they propagated the islamic teachings openly or  used the word islam with them, etc, so their response is pretty much.
 natural.

inorder not to hijack this thread, the issue related to seal of prophet and prophet after Hazrat Muhammad [pbuh] is tackled in the following thread (from ahmedis point of view)

Seal of prophets - Khataman Nabiyyeen
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13211&PN=1



[/QUOTE]

Edited by H3OO - 20 September 2008 at 5:04am
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Israfil View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2008 at 11:26am
Gulliver
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"What stops them all just coming together."
 
 
Faith is complex. Having faith in a metaphysical being such as Allah, Brahman or whatever you call the beyond is beyond the objective explanation of any science, that is why faith cannot be proven or disproven. Faith is powerful. It is something which we hold on to in times of need, but equally, disbelief too is powerful and complex and can be something we hold on to as well. From a sociological standpoint I think there are a series of events that happen that lead up to why a person disbelieves.
 
I think what Sign Reader pointed out in part was key as to identify factors that lead up to a persons disbelief. True, there are many who convert, however a percentage of that ufortunately are vulnerable women (most primarily of Caucasian decent) who marry men from muslim countries who need visas. Some convert for sincere reasons, out of a desire to know God through the umbrella of Islam. Some convert because of a kind of cognitive dissonance (See Wafa Sultan).
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gulliver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 September 2008 at 12:22pm
Yep I see and understand and agree with what you say there Israfil.
 
Is 'cognitive dissonance' the diagnostic term for 'nuttiness' ;-) lol Kidding.
 
Interesting to look at why anyone holds onto disbelief.
 
How much of life we hold onto faith really only in, 'times of need'. Seems it can be a very positive life giving thing for sure, when it permeates the whole life - in 'times of plenty' too. Well kinda what I begin to realise again.
 
K
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