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The essence of disbelief
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Mansoor_ali View Drop Down
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    Posted: 05 October 2008 at 4:35pm

  Here is wonderful article by Sheikh Ahmed Deedat CAN YOU STOMACH THE BEST OF RUSHDIE? "The Satanic Verses� unexpurgated
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Israfil View Drop Down
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The calls for Rushdie's death is all that took for his faith to wan. Some believer he was. 
 
 
I think there were other additional reason to consider to his faith than simply watching extremist call for Rushdie's death.
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Saladin View Drop Down
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I think you use knowledge and wisdom interchangably. Knowledge is not wisdom nor it cannot be wisdom. One may know algebra like, knowing square roots and such but that doesn't mean you are wise. As far as your later post, Rusdie didn't CHOOSE to know Islam through extremist. He was a young child and put there (know the difference from choice and compulsion). He knew the entire Qur'an and was able to recite it. Rusdie wasn't even on the scene when he was growing up learning Qur'an. He knew about  Rushdie only sometime later.
 
Knowledge is Awareness. Wisdom is knowing how well to use knowledge; sound judgement.
Ibn Warraq may have learnt the Quran but he was not wise enough to be considered as anywhere near a person with Quranic or Islamic knowledge.
The calls for Rushdie's death is all that took for his faith to wan. Some believer he was. 
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'
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Saladin View Drop Down
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Points: 575 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saladin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2008 at 5:53am
Indoctrination (I assume you mean religion) can only come about if the parents are actively religious. But I have to ask you what is correctness? Growing up I wasn't knowledgable of other faiths until I saw the movie 'X' by Spike Lee which is the movie on Malcolm X (and posthumously given the title of shaheed after his death). After seeing that movie I began examining various religions (mind you I was 8 years-old). As far as me 'knowing' I'm in the right faith that goes insofar as my belief in the wholehearted belief in that faith. Obviously now it has change. But you should explain what you mean by correctness.
 
If a person is indoctrinated with a religion or an ideology or social norms, right from childhood, by parents, teachers or society; that person can still determine with his intellect, whether the doctrines that was infused into him are right or wrong.
Correctness - What the person sees as confirming to his perception of right or wrong. However, perception should be intellectual.
 
I would also add ultimately if it is religion and promotes a metaphysical being such as God then ultimately the sole basis of that faith is, well, faith.
 
Yes, but when faith is complimented by reasoning it becomes more than just faith.
 
I disagree with the freewill part and, as far as calamities are concerned, I don't think they are great testers of the belief in the religion itself, but I believe calamities are great testers in testing whether or not God exists, and if God exists whether God is actively existing in the physical plane. But as far as the entire religion I am inclined to disagree. One may disagree with the spirituality of let's say Islam but may agree in giving to the poor, but as far as what is given to the poor is an arguable matter.
 
Why do you think freewill has got nothing to do with belief or disbelief? Please explain.
Belief in God is the first principle of all theistic religion. A theist losing belief in God is the utmost act of disbelief.
 
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'
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Saladin View Drop Down
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Points: 575 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saladin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 October 2008 at 4:35am
Well, I'm inclined to agree with you Saladin (on the highlited bold above) conditionally which is the result of my skepticism of calling disbelief in something 'weak.' Perhaps your perception of of weakness may differ from the indivudal whose faith in a religion is wanning.
 
Why would faith wan unless the individual finds no meaning believing in that religion wholeheartedly.
 
For instance, what if this individual who was in a particular faith decided that he/she did not believe in the tenents anymore because they just stopped believing it anymore?
 
Well, there should be a reason for disbelieving. Dogmatic flaws?
 
Or what about the one who goes through a series of negative emotional experiences in that particular faith (e.g. living in a Muslim community and experiencing detrimental encounters)?
 
Blaming the religion for the harm done by the people supposed to be following that religion, especially when the religion was not responsible for that, shows ignorance of the religion. Hence cant be counted as a wholehearted believer in the first place.
 
Or what about the one who is convinced through contemplation that this faith (insert religion here) is, after all, not the right one for them?
 
Thats exercising freewill and intellect. However, how the person contemplated depends on what the person wanted.
 
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'
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Israfil View Drop Down
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Points: 3984 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 October 2008 at 10:15am
There are quite a few evangelists who have more knowledge of Islam than most muslims do. Doesnt make them believers. Knowledge becomes Wisdom only when absorbed and used positively.
Ibn Warraq chose to understand Islam from muslims who were calling for Rushdie's death instead of reasoning from his knowledge of the Quran and knowledge gained at the madrasa. So much for his intellect.
 
 
I think you use knowledge and wisdom interchangably. Knowledge is not wisdom nor it cannot be wisdom. One may know algebra like, knowing square roots and such but that doesn't mean you are wise. As far as your later post, Rusdie didn't CHOOSE to know Islam through extremist. He was a young child and put there (know the difference from choice and compulsion). He knew the entire Qur'an and was able to recite it. Rusdie wasn't even on the scene when he was growing up learning Qur'an. He knew about  Rushdie only sometime later.
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Israfil View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Saladin Saladin wrote:

The essence of disbelief depends on the essence of belief. Disbelief comes as a result of weak faith to start with. A person indoctrinated with a certain belief from childhood, still has intellect to determine the correctness of that belief. If that person continues to hold the belief for any reason despite being unconvinced or partly believing is more likely to disbelieve when given the circumstances. The true believer is the one who verifies his/her belief without bias and accepts it out of conviction. Such a person is highly unlikely to disbelieve, given any circumstances.
Calamities are great testers of faith. Facing a calamity, out of a people of the same belief, for some faith is strenghtened while some lose faith. The former had the answers through his belief while the latter did not.
In the end belief or disbelief is as a result of using one's free will and intellect.
 
Well, I'm inclined to agree with you Saladin (on the highlited bold above) conditionally which is the result of my skepticism of calling disbelief in something 'weak.' Perhaps your perception of of weakness may differ from the indivudal whose faith in a religion is wanning. For instance, what if this individual who was in a particular faith decided that he/she did not believe in the tenents anymore because they just stopped believing it anymore? Or what about the one who goes through a series of negative emotional experiences in that particular faith (e.g. living in a Muslim community and experiencing detrimental encounters)? Or what about the one who is convinced through contemplation that this faith (insert religion here) is, after all, not the right one for them?
 
I disagree with you here:
 
"A person indoctrinated with a certain belief from childhood, still has intellect to determine the correctness of that belief."
 
Indoctrination (I assume you mean religion) can only come about if the parents are actively religious. But I have to ask you what is correctness? Growing up I wasn't knowledgable of other faiths until I saw the movie 'X' by Spike Lee which is the movie on Malcolm X (and posthumously given the title of shaheed after his death). After seeing that movie I began examining various religions (mind you I was 8 years-old). As far as me 'knowing' I'm in the right faith that goes insofar as my belief in the wholehearted belief in that faith. Obviously now it has change. But you should explain what you mean by correctness.
 
"The true believer is the one who verifies his/her belief without bias and accepts it out of conviction. Such a person is highly unlikely to disbelieve, given any circumstances."
 
I agree. I would also add ultimately if it is religion and promotes a metaphysical being such as God then ultimately the sole basis of that faith is, well, faith.
 
 
"Calamities are great testers of faith. Facing a calamity, out of a people of the same belief, for some faith is strenghtened while some lose faith. The former had the answers through his belief while the latter did not.
In the end belief or disbelief is as a result of using one's free will and intellect."
 
I disagree with the freewill part and, as far as calamities are concerned, I don't think they are great testers of the belief in the religion itself, but I believe calamities are great testers in testing whether or not God exists, and if God exists whether God is actively existing in the physical plane. But as far as the entire religion I am inclined to disagree. One may disagree with the spirituality of let's say Islam but may agree in giving to the poor, but as far as what is given to the poor is an arguable matter.
 
 
 
 
 
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Gulliver View Drop Down
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Points: 621 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gulliver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 October 2008 at 10:27am
"Calamities are great testers of faith..........   "
 
"Knowledge becomes Wisdom only when absorbed and used positively."
 
Indeedy. I think maybe we gotta be whacked over the head with a big hammer called Calamity (Jane ?) lol, to beat that knowledge in well enuff to become 'wisdom'.
 
I like what you are doing here Minute :-) Quoting Jesus(Isa) and the Qu'ran to give differing perspectives on the same message. Now that is a very 'positive' thing to do :-)
 
God bless
 
 
Do you think they'll ever invent a 'Satnav' that will get us to heaven ?  
 
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