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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 October 2008 at 12:36pm

Originally posted by honeto honeto wrote:

In my belief, Abraham's offering of his son as a sacrifice was never materialized. Thus there was no human sacrifice. It was only a Grand test of Faith for a prophet.

And in my belief, it was a test of faith that Abraham failed miserably.  True faith, guided by intellect, should have recognized that such an evil command could only have come from Satan.  Abraham ought to have known that.  He ought to have refused to obey it.

But then, a loving God would never have made such a demand in the first place.  It's an ugly, immoral story that teaches blind obedience to a capricious, evil God.  It should have no place in Holy Scripture.
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Gulliver View Drop Down
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Interesting Hasan.
 
"We don't have to worry about that kind of tests and commands as only prophets recieved such direct communications and commands from God. We, the followers of the prophets only follow what is revealed for us as a guide through them. "
 
We too are called to poverty of spirit Hasan. That God takes back his rightful throne in the heart. People are called every day to 'sacrifice' their dearest loved children. They don't have the benefit of direct communication with God to give consolation. They are left utterly bereft, desolate and wondering why why why. I think the lesson is to know that our hearts were made for God and will not rest till they rest in God. (Aquinas, I think). All created things pass away and with their passing we can be left desolate and lost. I think the lesson is that we must fix our heart on the eternal God - and when we are graced with this - we learn to love truly and accept all of God's gifts as they are intended. Even when they pass away or seem lost - God's has them in good keeping for us.
 
Like that poem I put up elsewhere - Hound of Heaven - the last verse....
 
Lo, all things fly thee, for thou fliest Me!

                Strange, piteous, futile thing,

Wherefore should any set thee love apart
?
Seeing none but I makes much of naught," He said,

"And human love needs human meriting,

                How hast thou merited--

Of all man's clotted clay rhe dingiest clot?

                Alack, thou knowest not

How little worthy of any love thou art !

Whom wilt thou find to love ignoble thee

                Save Me,   save only Me?

All which I took from thee I did but take,

                Not for thy harms.

But just that thou might'st seek it in my arms.

                All which thy child's mistake

Fancies as lost, I have stored for the at home;

                Rise, clasp My hand, and come!"

 

You can jump into any conversation Hasan  :-) Good to get everyone's thoughts and points of view.


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minuteman View Drop Down
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 For Gulliver:
 Please read chapter 37 of Quran from verse 83 onward to at least verse 112. You will get some answer.
 
 For Ron, the Atheist:
 Please remember that Allah never told Abraham to sacrifice his son. You said if there was such a command then it was from satan. Perhaps you are right. I will checkup if it is the belief of the jews and the christians that God ordered Abraham to sacrifice his son. That would be very bad for their religion only. ( I have checked up. It is the story of the bible OT and not the story of the Quran)
 
 In Islam, there was no such command. The command was to sacrifice his best and most dear thing. Now understand please and your Satan will disappear soon. Can you see that there was no command to sacrifice his son.
 Abraham complied by sacrificing camels etc. But he had the same vision again and again. So he thought over it and felt that the most dearest thing was his only son (ishmael) of old age. So he got ready to fulfil the vision. And he really got ready and tried to do it but was stopped just in time.
 I hope it suits you now.


Edited by minuteman - 06 October 2008 at 2:12pm
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Gulliver View Drop Down
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Minuteman, this is from chapter 37 of the Qu'ran.  It's clearly saying that Abraham is asked to sacrifice his son and when the son is protrate in readiness for sacrifice - God intervenes.
 
37:101 So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.
  Fabashsharnahu bighulamin haleemin
 
37:102 Then, when (the son) reached (the age of) (serious) work with him, he said: "O my son! I see in vision that I offer thee in sacrifice: Now see what is thy view!" (The son) said: "O my father! Do as thou art commanded: thou will find me, if Allah so wills one practising Patience and Constancy!"
  Falamma balagha maAAahu alssaAAyaqala ya bunayya innee ara fee almanamiannee athbahuka faonthur mathatara qala ya abati ifAAal ma tu/marusatajidunee in shaa Allahu mina alssabireena
 
37:103 So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
  Falamma aslama watallahuliljabeeni
 
37:104 We called out to him "O Abraham!
  Wanadaynahu an ya ibraheemu
 
37:105 "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
  Qad saddaqta alrru/yainna kathalika najzee almuhsineena
 
37:106 For this was obviously a trial-
  Inna hatha lahuwa albalaoalmubeenu
 
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Gulliver View Drop Down
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37:107 And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
  Wafadaynahu bithibhinAAatheemin
 
 
What does this mean ? Ransomed whom ?
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 October 2008 at 5:56pm
Originally posted by Gulliver Gulliver wrote:

Minuteman, this is from chapter 37 of the Qu'ran.  It's clearly saying that Abraham is asked to sacrifice his son and when the son is protrate in readiness for sacrifice - God intervenes.
Perhaps there are camels in minuteman's edition.Wink
 
Speaking of which, what's up with animal sacrifice anyway? Why does God have such a fondness for abusing animals?
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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minuteman View Drop Down
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  For Ron:
 
 There can be no end to your troubled thinking and your problems. When youhave no base to stand on then how can any one discuss with you. Discussion needs some belief and principles.
 
For Gulliver:
 
 Yes, that is right, what you have written. But it may not be the very first vision. It may be a later final vision directing Abraham to the right knowledge.
 So it was a vision which needed interpretation. But look at the bible telling Abraham to take his only son and sacrifice him on the alter.
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Gulliver View Drop Down
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"May not," "might be".  What are you afraid of really ackowledging here Minuteman ? It's black and white. Clearly God asks Abraham in a vision to sacrifice his son. His son is prostrate with his forehead to the ground. Get the impression something not nice is going to happen. And when Abraham is about to do the deed - God stops him ?
 
There are more details in the biblical account. But then most of the similar stories in the bible account have more details anyway.
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