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The Great Jihad ?

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myahya View Drop Down
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    Posted: 13 November 2008 at 7:21am

Ron: And then, much later and after it is too late for the idolators to correct their behaviour, then he roasts them in Hell for eternity.

Only one of His prophet (Nuh (as)) was trying to convince them to correct their behavior for about 1000 years. After him so many prophets with miracles and clear evidences and reasons tried in different ways but those who did not want to change did not, that was that. However, who has told you that in the other world all of the idolators will be necessarily in Hell for eternity? As much as I know from Islamic opinion, eternity is not for all of those in Hell.

Look, if He really doesn't want people worshipping idols, all He has to do is to make every idol burst into flames or melt into a puddle of magma the moment anyone tries to worship it.  It wouldn't take long before people got the message.  It would also be irrefutable, reproducible, scientific evidence that God exists.  As I've said before, if God really cared whether we believed in Him or not, He could do a much, much better job at getting His message out.

I would say in such a case God had to destruct everything as people has worshiped everything from moon, sun and human to animals and other things.

Let me give you more astonishing example than melting the statue: the children of Israel saw in front of their own face and with their own eyes that the sea was split so that they could pass through the middle of the sea but afterwards they worshipped an idol again in absence of Muses (as). Same as so many similar miracles, this also proves that any other procedure (such as melting and flaming) can not guarantee changing this behavior.

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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2008 at 6:41pm

Originally posted by myahya myahya wrote:

In Monotheistic religions, as an example, God simply reminds people to not worship pieces of stones carved by human. He reminds them (through His prophets) that the stones are not alive and can not even defend themselves so it is a waste of time worshiping them. This is a clear simple real reason, isn�t it?

And then, much later and after it is too late for the idolators to correct their behaviour, then he roasts them in Hell for eternity.

Look, if He really doesn't want people worshipping idols, all He has to do is to make every idol burst into flames or melt into a puddle of magma the moment anyone tries to worship it.  It wouldn't take long before people got the message.  It would also be irrefutable, reproducible, scientific evidence that God exists.  As I've said before, if God really cared whether we believed in Him or not, He could do a much, much better job at getting His message out.

Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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myahya View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote myahya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 November 2008 at 6:57am

Ron: Young children are very much like prisoners of their parents.  They are given very little freedom at first, and they are under constant surveillance.  And yes, they may be punished if they disobey.

Such a young child is likely to obey only out of fear of punishment (which itself is because of their lack of understanding as you also said), but loving parents do not punish to benefit from it nor to feel better.

I would simply remind her of the real reasons why her behaviour was bad  (e.g., if you don't eat your peas you won't be healthy), and leave it at that.

In Monotheistic religions, as an example, God simply reminds people to not worship pieces of stones carved by human. He reminds them (through His prophets) that the stones are not alive and can not even defend themselves so it is a waste of time worshiping them. This is a clear simple real reason, isn�t it?

It seems to me that God continues to treat people as children.

Through His last prophet, He has completed what people need to grow otherwise He would not send His last prophet. However, in contrast to this accomplishment, it seems many people continue to refuse the truth childishly.

Worse, actually, because to be effective, penalties must be given as soon as possible after the offense in order to change behaviour.

Actually not for an intellectual being, especially when love exists. God has never punished anyone before complete reasons and evidences. There is no shortcoming from Allah�s side.



Edited by myahya - 12 November 2008 at 8:16am
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 November 2008 at 4:15pm
Originally posted by myahya myahya wrote:

This example may show somehow what I am going to say in a way: You love your children and you may threaten them of the pain they may suffer from if they play with fire for example. Are you the father of prisoners in that case or a loving father? According to your experience and knowledge, you will encourage them by explaining the good consequences of good acts that you know are good for them. Are you the father of traders in that case or a loving father?
Young children are very much like prisoners of their parents.  They are given very little freedom at first, and they are under constant surveillance.  And yes, they may be punished if they disobey.
 
We need to treat them that way because as much as we love them, we know that they cannot always be trusted.  They have not yet learned to control their feelings or think long-term.  Moreover, they often do not understand the risks involved in certain seemingly innocuous behaviours.  So we set up clear (but often arbitrary) rules and penalties (e.g., "eat your peas or you don't get dessert"), easily understood and enforced.
 
Later,as our children mature and begin doing the right things because they are right instead of out of fear of getting caught, those arbitrary rules are dropped.  I would not consider punishing my adult daughter for something, even if I could.  I would simply remind her of the real reasons why her behaviour was bad  (e.g., if you don't eat your peas you won't be healthy), and leave it at that.  And I would love her just as much, whether she changed her behaviour or not, because that's what love is.
 
It seems to me that God continues to treat people as children.  Worse, actually, because to be effective, penalties must be given as soon as possible after the offense in order to change behaviour.  Telling my young daughter that she must eat her peas or I will punish her "eventually" would be worse than useless.
 
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote myahya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 November 2008 at 2:01am
Ron: I agree, but what about the converse? -- that a God who offers heaven in exchange for worship is a God of traders; and a God who threatens punishment for disobedience is a God of prisoners.  To me, a true God would extend his grace to all people as free men, unconditionally.  It has always seemed to me that all the threats and bribes in the Holy Scriptures of the monotheistic religions are demeaning to the very concept of a loving God.

I agree with God�s justice discussion that Hasan talked about. Let me express my view in this way: First of all, God has extended and is extending in all moments his grace to all people. In this world all blessings are the same from his prophets to people who does not worship him to people who even has killed his prophets! ALL people are using the same blessings, the same sun, earth, air, water, foods, life and so on. But on the last day they will see the consequences of their own life and acts.

On the other hand, let�s have a different view than justice for a moment. To me as a Muslim, Allah s.w.t. does not exchange anything for worship. In Islam, the relationship is totally different from what you think. In Islamic view God does not need human act of worship nor does He benefit from it nor does He suffer from human disobedience. In this ideology, God is absolutely free of needs.

Therefore, the offer of heaven is not in exchange of anything being beneficial for Him but for us. In monotheistic religions God is the most merciful with the most love towards human being.

This example may show somehow what I am going to say in a way: You love your children and you may threaten them of the pain they may suffer from if they play with fire for example. Are you the father of prisoners in that case or a loving father? According to your experience and knowledge, you will encourage them by explaining the good consequences of good acts that you know are good for them. Are you the father of traders in that case or a loving father?



Edited by myahya - 11 November 2008 at 2:02am
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Gulliver View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gulliver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 November 2008 at 1:28am
PS
 
Where's Ron the adultress ? Am in the mood for a good stoning ;-) lol
 
I am missing a lot of threads I think. Posts not coming to my inbox, so am getting lost. Nothing new in that :-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gulliver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 November 2008 at 12:56am
"Then second part is their own responsibility for the course that person follows."
 
Yes, I do see what you are trying to convey Hasan, and can understand and agree with most of it. It's this thing about responsibility that I wonder about. And it's naieve, and ignorant, to say that people in certain situations simply 'make excuses' and go on to behave in a bad way anyway. People need, use 'crutches' till they are healed and able to walk again by themselves. If they need crutches - they are not well.  You have said yourself that God, as All Knower, knows and there will be understanding and fair judgement. That's all I am trying to say. That we do not know what understanding and fair judgement is - when we are talking of God. Yet we assume all 'murderers' are gonna burn in hell. It's all this God of eternal burning in hell I find very difficult to believe. Threatening people out of hell into heaven. Sounds more like the lying Lucifer to me. IF God is infinite - and infinite in mercy and compassion; then to have so many of his creatures bound for the hellfire means God's compassion and mercy are finite, and god really isn't much of a god.  If Hitler could exist as every sub atomic particle that ever has or will exist - and suffer beyond imagination as each and every particle of all that exists, for trillions and trillions and zillions of years, and that was just the beginning. Would that be enough for him. If God's mercy and compassion are infinite - then that mercy and compassion must be infinitely extended to all - for ever. What blinds man to mercy and compassion ? Fear ?  I am just pondering the nature of this God Hasan. Even Muhammad agonised over his 'ummah' who would go to 'hell' ? We owe it to God, IF God exists ;-) -  to explore God's infinite Goodness. And it's the role of the 'shaitan' to make us look everywhere else - but to that great Goodness, which is ultimately what Heaven is, will be. That's what the story of Job was partly about. Satan was allowed to try Job and make him fearful and despairing of God's goodness.
 
I don't know what 'God's spirit' -  that man is partly made of, as well as clay, really is, Hasan. I am not saying it's divine, that man is divine. But it's naieve too to suggest that it does not imply man to have a far higher dignity, and destiny, than many people might seem to suggest, believe. For me it's about perspective. In realising and understanding the true dignity and calling of the human being - we may come to desire and act more in accordance with that calling and destiny - to show the true 'face' of God to the world - mercy and compassion.  Love heals. And I am not talking aiery fairy BS kind of 'love'. To say we are made partly of 'God's spirit' is not that different from the bible saying we are 'made in the image of God'. Man has something of his/her nature that has infinite capacity - as God is infinite. I believe that capacity, image in which we are made - is the capacity to love. I believe we will be judged on how we have loved in this world - and we will judge our selves in the clearer knowledge and love of God, when we 'meet' God through the veil.
 
Because, 'God is Love'.
 
Al-wadud. Al-rahman. Al-rahim.
 
I have spoken and my word is true. ;-) lol
 
 
 
I think that when you have priests, scholars, imams etc interpreting the scriptures for the rest of us, telling us what God's nature is - that can be difficult. Not always - sometimes. We place them in a position of power in so doing - and by the nature of being human - that power is often abused - used, to control and dominate others through fear. Intentionally or not. Even they have their baggage, and their understandings of God/scriputres are filtered through that too. As with all of us. They rationalise and justify why everyone, but themselves, are deserving of hell - gonna burn in hell.
 
Then there are those who see and know they may be truly deserving of 'hell' - but have come to know a God of real compassion, mercy and love. They have known a God who wishes to save from 'hell' - and saves them from that place, even though they may be most deserving of it; and they seek to know and have known that God who is willing and capable of 'saving' them, and in doing that - willing and capable of 'saving' all others too. Have others know this God through love, not fear. "Perfect love casts out all fear...........  " 'cept' the 'holy fear' which is the fear of offending/hurting self, other and God.  
 
Self knowledge is a sure path to God. If we would know God, we must also know our selves - in whose image we are made - that 'God's spirit'.
 
I am not advocating a big love in Hasan. No consequences or punishments for sin etc. No. There has to be justice and restoration of harmony/balance. I just wonder what those consequences/punishments are in relation to the infinite mercy and compassion of Allah. Are they 'eternal'.
 
Just thoughts. I am not pushing anything one way or another.


Edited by Gulliver - 11 November 2008 at 1:20am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 November 2008 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by Gulliver Gulliver wrote:

Hi Hasan
 
I have no argument with there being a need for justice - and restoration of harmony - balance. Again it's really about the factors that might partially determine someone's capacity to murder.
 
"A child who is the victim of prolonged sexual abuse usually develops low self-esteem, a feeling of worthlessness and an abnormal or distorted view of sex. The child may become withdrawn and mistrustful of adults, and can become suicidal.

Some children who have been sexually abused have difficulty relating to others except on sexual terms. Some sexually abused children become child abusers or prostitutes, or have other serious problems when they reach adulthood."

 
This is only one reason I find the concept of 'free will' nonsensical. A person, child in this instance, is abused/traumatised and left 'damaged'. He/she may later become an abuser him/herself. The murderer may have been seriously abused or traumatised in life, to the extent they don't see the one they murder as human. I am sure there is a psychological term for it.
 
When I speak of responsibility - I am wondering who is ultimately responsible for the cyble of 'abuse' - murder and mayhem that exists in this world. God may well hold the abuser/murderer responsible for their own choice to act. Whether that choice is 'free' or not is highly debatable. But, in justice, God would have to look further back to what happened the once 'innocent' child, to make of him/her an abuser/murderer.
 
My problem is not with God's justice. It's with man's sense what is 'just'. 
 
"Said thy Lord to the Angels: I will create �A vicegerent on earth.� They said: �Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood? -- Whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?� He said: �I know what ye known not.� (2:30) "
 
What does this really mean ? Just as the angels knew man had the spirit of God - and prostrated to that when asked. They knew that man would be capable of making mischief and shedding blood. Allah says though, "I know what ye know not". God allows mischief and the shedding of blood - even before it is 'created' - why. What is it about man, the spirit of God in him, that must 'pass the test' of suffering and physical death in this world that it might rise even higher than the angels, as Muhammad could rise higher than Gibril on his night ascension ?
 
 
 
Hi Gilliver,
I completely understand what you are saying. I hope you understand what I and trying to convey. Someone abusing someone else and that person becoming bad is two part. One, what others did to him, for which they will recieve a just consideration/compensation from the one who knows all. Then second part is their own responsibility for the course that person follows. For that we need the guidance which is provided by God. If such a person is sane, and able to achieve other things in life, he/she must be able to differentiate between right from wrong with that guidance.
People to stop living if they loose sight or hearing or a vital organ. We all go through ups and downs in life, should that give us excuse for leaving our obligations toward God and His creations? If we do, we loose.
 
The crutches of excuses don't take us too far toward success. God will hold us responsible for our intentions besides our actions.  You would think that perheps the abused somehow will not be fairly understood or judged. That would be mare underestimating the power and degree of detail to Judgement of the All Knower, God Almighty.
And to think that somehow God did not percieve these injustices and acts we vitness for me is simply to deny Him as God or just being nieve.
 
Let me be also clear about what you said regarding " man having God's spirit" that in my belief and understanding never can I assume that somhow I, you, Bush, Osama or Hitler have God's spirit and are part devine.  That would be a very misdirected belief.
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62

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