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Gulliver 
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Joined: 12 September 2008 Status: Offline Points: 621 |
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 Posted: 17 September 2008 at 4:06pm |
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"You showed an easy way brother { AbuAyisha}
 ."I smiled when I read this seekshidayath. Easy way, eh ? lol If you only knew. Be like asking me to abandon my dearest friend in the moments of greatest possible need. Like me asking you to, 'deny' Muhammad in some very core funfamental way. It's a lot of things - but 'easy' is not one of 'em :-)
I could lie about it of course. But that wouldn't enter into it at all.
God bless folks anyway, and again thank you :-)
K
Offer 'dua'(?) for my friend if you remember, please. He asked me to ask you all to pray for him. I say 'pray for' - same as offering dua, I think ? You know what I mean anyway.
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Sign*Reader
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Joined: 02 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3352 |
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Posted: 17 September 2008 at 10:14pm |
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I would recommend the following: Muhammad(his life based on the earliest sources) By Martin Lings It is only 345 pages! Edited by Sign*Reader - 17 September 2008 at 10:24pm |
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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Sign*Reader
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Joined: 02 November 2005 Status: Offline Points: 3352 |
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Posted: 17 September 2008 at 10:45pm |
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This protocol was settled so long time ago debating here is not going to change the rule one iota! The visiting the Inviolable House has certain protocol and minding of the manners that a non believer would never to be able to conduct properly! It takes some learning before you head out there even being a believer cuz I know been there done that! If you like to know the whole mess of 911 was triggered by the American troops males and females cruising around Mecca round about the first gulf war! Which ayah you are referring to about "Al Naas" thing? Edited by Sign*Reader - 17 September 2008 at 10:50pm |
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Kismet Domino: Faith/Courage/Liberty/Abundance/Selfishness/Immorality/Apathy/Bondage or extinction.
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Gulliver
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Joined: 12 September 2008 Status: Offline Points: 621 |
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Posted: 18 September 2008 at 3:43am |
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"It is only 345 pages!" Is that all ? lol
With all the other books I am gonna have to read.
I can understand that there are protocols to follow in Mecca, and a non believer would not understand them or be able to follow. Other religions have these too. Places become more 'sacred' than people - maybe why there is so much real 'profanity' in the world.
I dunno. Maybe Minuteman told me what I wanted to hear yesterday, "forget islam." He did not mean that at all. He was making a comparison. But maybe that is what I wanted to hear - forget all of it - the 'religious' - the God made in man's image. Cause hard as man tries - it seems to me he cannot rise beyond the concept of God in his own image.
Thank you SignReader. I will have a look at that some time. If I seemed to speak out of turn with anyone yesterday I ask your forgiveness.
It was one of those days, when I agreed with my friend Buddy. I hope I am not thrown out for giving this little pearl of wisdom.
"(Whomever)........ the world's so full of c???....... why bother wipin' your ??s !"
It left me wondering I have to admit. If one reason people do turn to religion - or are attracted by certain aspects of it - is because they have been so steeped in the 'profane' of the world, that anything which offers a sense, glimpse of the 'sacred' is a 'blessing from God' and to be grasped and held onto at all costs.
God bless all.
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Gulliver
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Joined: 12 September 2008 Status: Offline Points: 621 |
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Posted: 18 September 2008 at 4:53am |
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This reminds me of a story I heard two years ago. Ghandi is in London, England. He wants to go into a little church on a sidestreet somewhere, to see, 'how the christians worship'. The man at the door refuses him admission because of the way Ghandi is 'dressed' in his 'white robe' like a 'beggar'. Ghandi apparently claimed that is why he could never emrbace Christianity. Christ was not the problem - the christians were. I must see if I can find more detail on this one folks.
I understand that a person who is not Muslim, or not acquainted with all that is required ritualistically of Islamic faith - may indeed act in a way, knowingly or not, that is not proper in such a place, and really maybe should not be tolerated for 'good' reasons.
I understand and accept that perfectly, and I would rather never go near such a place than offend anyone of true faith that way.
Like Moses, being asked to take off his shoes, when he was in the 'holy place'.
Then there is the one who might genuinely want to know, to learn, to see, to understand and to believe perhaps. But he is refused admission. Not because he won't take off his shoes. Rather because other human beings choose to decide what may or may not be in the heart - the 'intent'.
He/she is not permittted to do so, because they are not 'dressed' a certain way. I realise it's all more complicated than that. Or is it.
It's the heart God looks at.
I fully respect that this is a sacred place for Muslim people, and would not in any way wish to take from that. Dear God no. There are places in Christian world that are held as sacred too.
I was asked a simple question, and I went looking a simple answer. I can't go, not yet, if ever. It would not in the least put me off trying to understand Islamic faith.
I don't mean this in a disrespectful way at all. I am more interested in seeing how Muslims, 'live' the 'life of faith,' than in going to any 'sacred' place - inside or outside of Islam.
So no more arguing over the 'politics' of it all, people :-) I hope someone truly deserving of going, gets to go - a humble soul from a little village somewhere. To see that would be a 'sacred', holy and beautiful thing indeed, and I know, and feel very sure there are many such souls who visit Mecca every year, who worked and saved hard to get there, and show their love of God, by 'taking off' their 'shoes' in the 'holy place' - 'the heart', where they meet with God.
God bless :-)
Edited by Gulliver - 18 September 2008 at 4:59am |
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Alwardah
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Joined: 25 March 2005 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 980 |
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Posted: 18 September 2008 at 5:32am |
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Hi Gulliver According to all the scholars the word Najasun refers to all Non-Believers not only the pagans and idolotors. I have not read the responses in full (just a quick read) so please forgive me if I say anything that will hurt you or anyone else. You are absolutely correct �There is no Compulsion in Religion.� Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala (God) can be worshiped anyway so there is no need for you to go to the Holy lands to worship Him. If HE wished for all mankind (NAS) to visit the Ka'bah HE would not reveal the Ayah that I quoted above. Why do Muslims and non-Muslims find it so difficult to accept rules for which there is clear evidence from the Glorious Qur'an and/or Sunnah. Why do we do to the Holy Lands? Is it not part of our worship? It is the same with fasting and Salah. Why do only Muslims fast not the rest of mankind? Yes I know the Jews and the Christians fast and pray but not in the manner the Muslims do. There are reports that Christian delegates prayed in the Prophet�s Masjid in Al- Madinah. These event happened before Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala revealed this Ayah. Brother Gulliver, you are sincerely seeking the truth and I pray that Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala will guide you to the beautiful of Islam. Yes I addressed you as brother because we are all the children of Adam and thus part of the human race. I would also like all mankind to visit the Holy Lands and I would also like to pray Salah twice daily and above anything else I would love to dress the way I want. But this is what I want not what Allah (God) wants for me.
Once again I apologize to anyone if my response has hurt them in any way. May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta�ala forgive us for our shortcomings and guide us to become better Muslims who abide by the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah Ameen! Peace. Edited by Alwardah - 18 September 2008 at 5:37am |
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�Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155) |
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minuteman
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Joined: 25 March 2007 Status: Offline Points: 1642 |
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Posted: 18 September 2008 at 6:52am |
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I feel that no one has the authority to stop any one from visiting the holy places even though he may be a non-believer. No one can perform pagan woship in that place (Makkah and Madinah). But that is all. If any one wants to go and see what goes on there, I am sure no one is justified to stop any one from paying a visit to the first house built for the worship of Allah. It was the pagans (idolators, Kuffar, the enemies) who put a ban on the Hajj.
That is only my opinion. No one need believe it. I had few verses for the word "Al Naas" in mind. I may post just two verses again. The others I will not do. What Al-wardah has said is correct. there is no worthy Islamic government in the world now.
The verses:
Surely the first house (of worship) for Mankind (All mankind?) is the one at Bakkah, the blessed place and a source of Guidance for all Creation. (2:96)
In it are clear signs i.e. status of Abraham. Whoever entered it became safe. And it is encumbant upon every man, the pilgrimage of the house, whoever can make his way to it. And whoever opposed it (Denied the passage) then Allah is not in need of anything of the all the creation. (2:97
The question arises. Is it encumbant upon every believing man to pay a visit to the house of worship or it encumbant upon every man?
The best thing is to look into the history. What went on during the time of the early (4) Caliphs. There were too many wars going on in those days and things were not stable. We may not find a good example there too. But something can be learnt from that time.
Otherwise, it would be the responsibility of the Muslims to arrange (conduct) a safe visit for any one who wants to go there.
Edited by minuteman - 18 September 2008 at 6:56am |
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Gulliver
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Joined: 12 September 2008 Status: Offline Points: 621 |
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Posted: 18 September 2008 at 7:47am |
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Nothing you say hurts of offends me Alwardah :-) God bless you too.
I am the one who speaks out of turn at times. It's the Irish temper, and some times plain silly ol' pride getting in the way of everything. I ask God all the time for real humility. And a pure heart. But pride always raises its ugly head. I need to root out of me what I imagine I might not like in another.
So you do not hurt or offend me with anything you say, and I appreciate what you are saying completely, and thank you. I hope it did not seem 'anti-Islam' - talking about the 'sacred' places etc. It's not that at all. I am driven by something that would have me seek what brings the people of the world together - before God, even in the great diversity that there is. Growing up where there is a lot of conflict - supposedly, in the 'name of God', when God had nothing to do with it. You are tempted at times to wonder if there is truth in any 'religion,' when it does seem the cause of so much conflict on the smaller and global scales. You can understand why some people choose to abandon religion altogether, and would rather religion be kept from school curriculum etc. It's a sad state of affairs that people equate 'God' with violence, all over the world. Religious leader and politicians - I don't trust any of 'em. LOL I am kidding.
Some times it seems 'reilgious' practice itself is nothing more, or less, than a manifestation of pride, and that creates those little power trips that pull people apart rather than bring them together.
I see and believe completely that a trip to Mecca can be, is a form of great humility and true'worship' for a Muslim. Of course I do. If I had the money, I'd love to get all those truly faithful little souls - men and women all over the world to be able to worship God that way. Why I spoke of the humble little soul from the village, who can and never will be able to afford to go. But he/she has such purity of faith - that it would be a wonderful thing to be able to help them perform the pilgrimage.
I am curious and this may not be the thread for it. I mentioned somewhere else I think, the 'great commandments'.
�[Jesus], which is the great commandment in the law?� And he said to him, �You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.�
Forgetting what may or may not be 'corrupt' for now. I have not got a single clue what is corrupt or not, and it seems to me I'd have to spend a zillion life times in an ivory tower somewhere to even begin that process of discovery. I am not saying it is not a worthwhile cause. Of course it is. However, is there a similar message in Islam to these, 'great commandments' ?
If there is, I'd like to ask what it means to a Muslim. I'd like to know what it means to a Christian too for that matter :-)
Is this an example of the fruit of having sought to obey/obeyed such 'commandments' -
Prayer for Yom HaShoah (Holocaust Remembrance Day)
Lord, remember not only the men of good will, but also those of ill will. But do not remember all the suffering they have inflicted upon us. Remember rather the fruits we have brought, thanks to this suffering: our comradeship, our loyalty, our humility, the courage, the generosity, the greatness of heart that has grown out of this. And when they come to judgment, let all the fruits we have bourne be their forgiveness.
Found on a scrap of paper at the liberation of Ravensbruck Concentration Camp in Germany God bless :-) And you are right - we are all brothers, and sisters. Edited by Gulliver - 18 September 2008 at 7:51am |
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Gulliver wrote: