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Leaving Islam Punishable by Death?...
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Mansoor_ali View Drop Down
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Originally posted by minuteman minuteman wrote:

 
 We have shifted fromt he subject of apostacy to that of life and death of
 
 Isa a.s. Isa a.s. is being worshipped as God by the christians. I am presenting the verses of the Quran below to prove that he is not livng now. Please see:
 

[16:19] And Allah knows what you keep hidden and what you disclose.

[16:20] And those on whom they call besides Allah create not anything, but they are themselves created.

[16:21] They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will be raised.


 Read the verses in its 'context'.Tell us where in the context of these verses Allah is talking about Jesus Christ?

 No where in the context Allah is addressing Christians so how can you attach these verses to Jesus Christ?

 Allah knows best.

Originally posted by minuteman minuteman wrote:

In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

[25:1] Blessed is He who has sent down Al-Furq�n to His servant, that he may be a Warner to all the worlds -

[25:2] He to Whom belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth. And He has taken unto Himself no son, and has no partner in the Kingdom, and He has created everything, and has determined its proper measure.

[25:3] Yet they have taken beside Him gods, who create nothing but are themselves created, and who have no power to harm or benefit themselves, nor have they any power over death or life or Resurrection.



 These verses are not talking about death of christ.I donot know where death of christ is mentioned in these verses.

 Allah knows best.
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minuteman View Drop Down
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  Those whom they call beside Allah are dead, not living.
 
 
[16:21] They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will be raised.
 
 Even though Isa a.s. is not mentioned in this verse by name but he is being worshipped as god beside Allah. It is a general verse, includes all those being worshipped, may be a man or a woman. It is clear that all those who are being called god beside Allah are DEAD, not LIVING.
 
There is more proof. The word "Walla Dheena' in the beginning of the verse 16:20 relates to bodies having understanding (Aql). So please see again, a slight change in translation of verse 16:20,:
 

[16:20] And those (who have Aql) whom they call besides Allah create not anything, but they are themselves created.

[16:21] They are dead, not living; and they know not (do not understand) when they will be raised.
 
 The words " They know not when they will be raised" to life again, also shows it is about the mankind. They are dead. To me it includes Isa a.s. and any other person who is being worshipped beside Allah. Perhaps some one will think over and let me know if this verse applies to Isa a.s. or not.
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Mansoor_ali View Drop Down
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Originally posted by minuteman minuteman wrote:

 
  Those whom they call beside Allah are dead, not living.
 
 
[16:21] They are dead, not living; and they know not when they will be raised.
 
 Even though Isa a.s. is not mentioned in this verse by name but he is being worshipped as god beside Allah. It is a general verse, includes all those being worshipped, may be a man or a woman. It is clear that all those who are being called god beside Allah are DEAD, not LIVING.
 
There is more proof. The word "Walla Dheena' in the beginning of the verse 16:20 relates to bodies having understanding (Aql). So please see again, a slight change in translation of verse 16:20,:
 

[16:20] And those (who have Aql) whom they call besides Allah create not anything, but they are themselves created.

[16:21] They are dead, not living; and they know not (do not understand) when they will be raised.
 
 The words " They know not when they will be raised" to life again, also shows it is about the mankind. They are dead. To me it includes Isa a.s. and any other person who is being worshipped beside Allah. Perhaps some one will think over and let me know if this verse applies to Isa a.s. or not.



 As i said the context is very important and you are failed to tell us where in the context this verse even this Surah is addressing Christians and Jews faith?The answer is no where.

 Even this Surah is addressing the disbelievers of Makkah (not christians and Jews)

 Secondly,there are majority of reliable mufassirs who disagree with you on this subject.

 I donot know any reliable mufassir who says that Jesus has been died according to Surah 16.

 

 
 

 

 

 
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minuteman View Drop Down
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 Thanks. The context is always important. You may be right that context is about the pagans of Arabia. But the words enclose all being worshipped, all with aql are meant here, not stones. Isa is one of them. So he is no more alive. he had no special power over life and death.
 
  [16:20] And those (who have Aql) whom they call besides Allah create not anything, but they are themselves created.
[16:21] They are dead, not living; and they know not (do not understand) when they will be raised.
 
 The verses are describing those who had understanding (aql). Also, life and death is being discussed. The idols do not have any life or death.
 ==========================================
 Now please see the other verses which I had presented. That is pointing to Isa a.s. :
 
In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

[25:1] Blessed is He who has sent down Al-Furq�n to His servant, that he may be a Warner to all the worlds -

[25:2] He to Whom belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth. And He has taken unto Himself no son, and has no partner in the Kingdom, and He has created everything, and has determined its proper measure.

[25:3] Yet they have taken beside Him gods, who create nothing but are themselves created, and who have no power to harm or benefit themselves, nor have they any power over death or life or Resurrection.

 


Edited by minuteman - 03 October 2008 at 10:08am
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Mansoor_ali View Drop Down
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Originally posted by minuteman minuteman wrote:

 
 Thanks. The context is always important. You may be right that context is about the pagans of Arabia. But the words enclose all being worshipped, all with aql are meant here, not stones. Isa is one of them. So he is no more alive. he had no special power over life and death.
 
  [16:20] And those (who have Aql) whom they call besides Allah create not anything, but they are themselves created.
[16:21] They are dead, not living; and they know not (do not understand) when they will be raised.
 
 The verses are describing those who had understanding (aql). Also, life and death is being discussed. The idols do not have any life or death.
 ==========================================


 Can you quote any single mufassir which support your claim that Jesus has been died according to Surah 16:20-21?

 Different verses and different Surahs were revealed in specific conditions and they address different sect of people.You cannot ignore those circumstances in which they were revealed.Quran address christian's faith in different Surahs particularly in Surah 3,4 etc but no where in the entire Surah 16 Allah is talking about christians and their faith.He is talking about disbelievers of Mecca.You cannot take the meaning out of the context of verse(16:20-21).It is not correct way of interpretation of Surahs.

Originally posted by minuteman minuteman wrote:

Now please see the other verses which I had presented. That is pointing to Isa a.s. :
 
In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.

[25:1] Blessed is He who has sent down Al-Furq�n to His servant, that he may be a Warner to all the worlds -

[25:2] He to Whom belongs the Kingdom of the heavens and the earth. And He has taken unto Himself no son, and has no partner in the Kingdom, and He has created everything, and has determined its proper measure.

[25:3] Yet they have taken beside Him gods, who create nothing but are themselves created, and who have no power to harm or benefit themselves, nor have they any power over death or life or Resurrection.

 It should be remembered that Surah 25 verse 2 is not specifically talking about Jesus Christ(Allah knows best)

 And also this Surah was revealed in Mecca.

 Let us suppose it is specifically talking about Jesus Christ.But my question is then where death of Christ is mentioned in Surah 25:1-3?

 And i also said that Jesus Christ performed those miracles NOT ON HIS OWN but with the help of Allah.So how it make him God? or Creator?

 And Quran is very clear that Jesus is only creature of creator.

 I know my christians who quoted many verses from their gospels to prove that Jesus is God because he performed so many miracles but i challenged them to quote only 1 miracle which Christ performed on his own but they cannot do it.

 So in a same way Jesus performed miracles but it does not make him creator,it does not mean he has attributes of creator because creator creates on his own but Christ does not create any thing on his own but with the help of Allah.

 With the help of Allah even you can go beyond the limits of heavens but it still doesnot make you God.

 Allah Knows Best.
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minuteman View Drop Down
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 Thanks Mansoor, you have explained your point of view that jesus did create birds with the permission of Allah. I disagree. I do not know about those birds which Jesus created and where they are now. Did they further procreate more birds or just kept flying about only. Are those birds created by Jesus all mixed up with thos ebirds which are created by Allah? Can we tell which ones are which?
 
 But please, you do not need to answer any of the above questions. I will try to find out an answer myself, Insha Allah.
 
 I remember some Mufassirs had much difficulty with these verses and they opined that those birds just flew away out of sight and then used to fall down and beome pieces of clay again. There are some explanations. I do not feel it necessary to take literal meanings of these verses.
 
 In the Quran elsewhere, some people have been called animals or worse than animals. Some are called dead and some are called deaf dumb and blind even though they are not so.
 
 Well thank you very much for your explanation. I have understood your point of view.
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He will say: "I bring you a sign from your Lord. From clay I will make for you the likeness of a bird. I shall breath into it and, by God's leave, it shall become a living bird."
 
Sura 3:49
 
Does the Qu'ran say that Jesus is the Spirit and Word of God ? "Be".
 
Adam is made from clay and the spirit of God breathed into him to bring him to life ?
 
A little bird is fashioned from clay - and Jesus breathes life into it - God's spirit, and the little bird lives - by the power of God's Word and Spirit ?
 
I tend to try and see beyond the literal in much of this scriptural writing. But maybe in this instance it has to be taken literally.
 
Just as there is said to be similtude in the creation of Adam and Isa. There is a similtude in the power of God to breathe life into clay in the creation of a man and a bird.
 
Btw. If the spirit of God, life is breathed into this little clay bird - does that mean it becomes a 'living soul' ? What makes us different from animals - we having 'souls' and they don't ?
 
The power of God to breathe life into clay and make of it a living being was made manifest in this instance through Jesus ?


Edited by Gulliver - 05 October 2008 at 5:16am
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Mansoor_ali View Drop Down
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Originally posted by minuteman minuteman wrote:

 
 Thanks Mansoor, you have explained your point of view that jesus did create birds with the permission of Allah. I disagree. I do not know about those birds which Jesus created and where they are now. Did they further procreate more birds or just kept flying about only. Are those birds created by Jesus all mixed up with thos ebirds which are created by Allah? Can we tell which ones are which?
 
 But please, you do not need to answer any of the above questions. I will try to find out an answer myself, Insha Allah.


 As you wish.
 
Originally posted by minuteman minuteman wrote:

I remember some Mufassirs had much difficulty with these verses and they opined that those birds just flew away out of sight and then used to fall down and beome pieces of clay again. There are some explanations. I do not feel it necessary to take literal meanings of these verses.


 Can you quote these mufassirs?or link?but i think all of them agree that Jesus created those birds by Gods's permission.
 
Originally posted by minuteman minuteman wrote:

In the Quran elsewhere, some people have been called animals or worse than animals. Some are called dead and some are called deaf dumb and blind even though they are not so.


 Yes as i said earlier we can find out where verses are speaking symbolically and where they donot with the help of context.
 
Originally posted by minuteman minuteman wrote:

Well thank you very much for your explanation. I have understood your point of view.


 Here is my another response to your article http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13211&PN=16
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