 asda, you have differing knowledge about Islam. You say that the first three Khalifas were elected by men and not appointed by Allah. But Hazrat Ali only was appointed as Khalifah by Allah. |
well thats the truth..
| Q1. Can you show me how Hazrat Ali was appointed by Allah? |
well this questions has thousands of answers....well i know only a few of them...shud i relate to u the event of ghadir e khum, or the verse of vilayah, the comparision of Aaron with Moses (may peace be on both of them) with prophet muhammad (a.s) and Maula Ali (a.s)...the laws of Successorship in Quran (well thats a bit inter-related).....and umm..i cant remember any more...other answers i know here and there....
well we can start with gadhir e khum....which is the clear most event of appointment of Imam Ali (a.s) as his (a.s) successor..
the Prophet (PBUH&HF) stopped on that place (the pond of Khum) which was extremely hot. Then he sent for all people who have been ahead in the way, to come back and waited until all pilgrims who fell behind, arrived and gathered. He ordered Salman (RA) to use rocks and camel
toolings to make a pulpit (minbar) so he could make his announcement.
On this day the Messenger of Allah spent approximately five ours in this place; three hours of which he was on the pulpit. He recited nearly one hundred verses from The Glorious Quran, and for seventy three times reminded and warned people of their deeds and future. Then he gave them a long speech. The following is a part of his speech which has been widely narrated by the Sunni traditionists:
The Messenger of Allah declared: "It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. I am leaving for you two precious things and if you adhere both of them, you will never go astray after me. They are the Book of Allah and my progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt. The two shall never separate from each other until they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)."Then the Messenger of Allah continued: "Do I not have more right (Awla) over the believers than what they have over themselves?" People cried and answered: "Yes, O' Messenger of God." Then Prophet (PBUH) held up the hand of Ali and said: "Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), Ali is his leader (Mawla). O' God, love those who love him, and be hostile to those who are hostile to him."
Some of the Sunni references:
(1) Sahih Tirmidhi, v2, p298, v5, p63
(2) Sunan Ibn Maja, v1, pp 12,43
(3) Khasa'is, by al-Nisa'i, pp 4,21
(4) al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p129, v3, pp 109-110,116,371
(5) Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,118,119,152,330, v4, pp 281,368,370,
372,378, v5, pp 35,347,358,361,366,419 (from 40 chains of narrators)
(6) Fada'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Hanbal, v2, pp 563,572
(7) Majma' al-Zawa'id, by al-Haythami, v9, p103 (from several transmitters)
(8) Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, v12, pp 49-50
(9) Tafsir al-Durr al-Manthur, by al-Hafiz Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, v3, p19
(10) Tarikh al-Khulafa, by al-Suyuti, pp 169,173
(11) al-Bidayah wal-Nihayah, by Ibn Kathir, v3, p213, v5, p208
(12) Usdul Ghabah, by Ibn Athir, v4, p114
(13) Mushkil al-Athar, by al-Tahawi, v2, pp 307-308
(14) Habib al-Siyar, by Mir Khand, v1, part 3, p144
(15) Sawaiq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, p26
(16) al-Isabah, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v2, p509; v1, part1, p319,
v2, part1, p57, v3, part1, p29, v4, part 1, pp 14,16,143
(17) Tabarani, who narrated from companions such as Ibn Umar, Malik Ibn
al-Hawirath, Habashi Ibn Junadah, Jari, Sa'd Ibn Abi Waqqas,
Anas Ibn Malik, Ibn Abbas, Amarah,Buraydah,...
(18) Tarikh, by al-Khatib Baghdadi, v8, p290
(19) Hilyatul Awliya', by al-Hafiz Abu Nu'aym, v4, p23, v5, pp26-27
(20) al-Istiab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr, Chapter of word "ayn" (Ali), v2, p462
(21) Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, pp 154,397
(22) al-Mirqat, v5, p568
(23) al-Riyad al-Nadirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p172
(24) Dhaka'ir al-Uqba, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, p68
(25) Faydh al-Qadir, by al-Manawi, v6, p217
(26) Yanabi' al-Mawaddah, by al-Qudoozi al-Hanafi, p297
Let me remind u that the hadith of Ghadir is a mutawaatir Hadith....
well the argument which is done by the sunnis is that the word MAWLA means "friend"...our response:
we cant look at one sentence of the hadith and make an assumption....the word mawla has various meanings....infact the root of the word Mawla as far as i know is the word AWLA....the word AWLA means athority...well i wud request u to go up and look back at the full saying of the Prophet (a.s)...and here is the arabic narration just to make it ez:
حدثنا ابن نمير حدثنا عبد الملك يعني ابن أبي سليمان عن عطية العوفي قال سألت زيد بن أرقم فقلت له إن ختنا لي حدثني عنك بحديث في شأن علي رضي الله تعالى عنه يوم غدير خم فأنا أحب أن أسمعه منك فقال إنكم معشر أهل العراق فيكم ما فيكم فقلت له ليس عليك مني بأس فقال نعم كنا بالجحفة فخرج رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم إلينا ظهرا وهو آخذ بعضد علي رضي الله تعالى عنه فقال يا أيها الناس ألستم تعلمون أني أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم قالوا بلى قال فمن كنت مولاه فعلي مولاه قال فقلت له هل قال اللهم وال من والاه وعاد من عاداه قال إنما أخبرك كما سمعت
look at the words AWLA (i cant highlight it...cuz aint working right)....the prophet simple asks:
"Do I not have more right (Awla) over the believers than what they have over themselves?"
and the rest of the ppl reply positively....now abviosly the Prophet (a.s) is talking about leadership in the above sentence...and surly its common sense to say that the topic of leadership was being discussed...therefore next the prophet (a.s) says: "Whoever I am his leader (Mawla), Ali is his leader (Mawla)."
the sunni support their case of mawla's meaning to be a "friend" with an event that happend in yemen...if that was the case then common sense says that the prophet (a.s) wud just adress them calling them personally...and not delivering a speach where he mentions that he is gonna die soon in the 1st sentence...
"Had he desired to just show `Ali's contributions, and to rebut those who bore grudge against him, he (pbuh) would simply have said: "This is my cousin, my son�in�law, the father of my descendants, the master of my household; therefore, do not harm him," or something like this to show mere admission of status and dignity. But the way this hadith is worded gives no impression other than what we have suggested. It points out rational and deductive proofs."
This is one of the places where the Prophet (a.s) clearly indicated the fact that Imam Ali (a.s) was his successor...
| Your knowledge about Hazrat harun is also very weak. He was the Khalifah only during a short time when Hazrat Musa went on the mount. He was not a Khalifah for all times. |
i knw that...and i did mention the fact that he died b4 h.Musa....but the main point to look at is how he was appointed...even for a second....
well if u want more examples from the history of Islam, i can bring them to u..
| I will post further about your ideas. No offence. I hope you will not give me any chance to use any harsh words. It all depends on you. The moment I detect that you have used any bad word about the senior Sahabah or about the mothers of the faithful then I will check you. |
inshallah we will debate in an healthy manner and respect each other's leaders...even if they are scholars...and think about the facts presented...and not just deny it just because it goes against what has been taught from childhood.....
| So I have only replied to your Harun statements and about the short time Khilafat of Hazrat Ali. I had informed you that the matters are decided by Mushawarat (consultation). There is no family affair in Islam. Otherwise it will be like did Hazrat Mua'awiyah that he made his son Yazeed the Khalifah. |
any one example from the past where the khilafat of Allah (s.w.t) was established by Mushawarat among "HUMANS"??? as the quran mentions the criteria of future caliphs of Allah (s.w.t)...
| Q 2. Do you want a similar system in Islam? That is the system of the kings. Or the Hindus have a caste system. The son of a Brahmin is a Brahmin, a sacred cow? (more later when I read your reply carefully) |
well the fathers (a.s) dint appoint the son as an Imam...Allah (s.w.t) did so...
and u r opening another chapter of Khilafat..u say that Imamat is like kingdom...which is not the fact...kingdom is where the earlier ruler appoints the latter...and its not true here.....
we better discuss one point....actually this debate has gone thru varios topics...and suddenly we r not discussing Sahaaba (as is the topic) and we r discussing Imamat/Khilafat...do u think we shud continue on another thread and leave this for discussing the acts of the sahaaba???
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