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A muslimah in frustration

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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2008 at 8:54am
Originally posted by seekshidayath seekshidayath wrote:

 
But you did not answer my two questions. 
 
WHy are women to stand in last rows while is salah ? WHats the wisdom behind that ? .
 
Why are two witnesses of women equated to men.
 
 
 
Not even a minimally knowledgable Muslim will say that the above aspects of Islam & Qur'an are wrong. HOWEVER they can disagree with the logic people invent in order to explain the injunctions. And though I happily accept Allah's injunctions, I do not and will not accept the reason you and some other muslims put forward to explain this.
 
The above injunctions in no way imply that women are mentally deficient to men. Both have been blessed with EQUAL yet different natural tendencies/capabilities. Yet there are still some men & women out there that defy the natural tendencies and are exceptional/different.
 
As for why women pray behing men i.e. in the last rows. . .does not mean that they are inferior etc. It is so the mosque remains a place where the focus strictly remains on Allah & worship. Not the oppositte gender. Also like I mentioned in an earlier post, women pray in the last rows, for thier own convenience of the hijab. So that men do not ogle at them while they are engrossed in worship, or body parts are in plain view. ETC
 
As for the ayah that refers to two female witnesses. The verse is referring to financial transactions, like Brother Abuaisha so correctly mentioned. Btw, one can look up completely non-religous researches that show that male-female minds function differently when it somes to subjects like maths, language, science etc etc.
Whatver country you may go to, you will still find that the more men are in the financial fields, and have more business/financial experience on a whole. Thus when it comes to witnesses, there is an exception in the number of witnesses.
 
HOWEVER in non-financial transactions, even during Prophet Muhammad's time, on many a times, a single woman's testomony was accepted. Especially since in many cases, only women are present and thus only they can be a witness - especially when it comes to cases pertaining to family affairs etc.
 
The Prophet cancelled a nikah from taking place bcz a woman stood up and said that she had breastfed both the prospective bride & groom as kids. . . (as a wet-nurse) thus both became related. I can also quote other examples later. . . as well as references.
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2008 at 8:53am

Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

If there are any studies that universally say that women re weaker in memory bring it forth.

I did a quick Google search ("men women memory studies") and it looks like women have better memories than men for most things.  Here is a typical study:

Sex Differences In Memory: Women Better Than Men At Remembering Everyday Events

...

Psychologists Agneta Herlitz and Jenny Rehnman in Stockholm, Sweden asked an even more complicated question of human predisposition: Does one�s sex influence his or her ability to remember every day events? Their surprising findings did in fact determine significant sex differences in episodic memory, a type of long-term memory based on personal experiences, favoring women.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080220104244.htm



Edited by Ron Webb - 05 July 2008 at 8:55am
Addeenul �Aql � Religion is intellect.
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Chrysalis View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Chrysalis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2008 at 8:32am
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

Chrysalis perhaps I can convince you to say "some men" instead of using the general term of 'men' since some men aren't the cause of temptations rather, women too can only cause them as well.

 
Smile Indeed I was referring to only those men who are weak enough to get 'tempted' when they see woman in the workplace/outside her home. And yes, both men and women are equally prone to/ are the cause of temptations. . . that was I initially meant. Perhaps I couldnt xplain myself tht well.
 
Btw, with refernce to Shasta's post . . . though I agree with everything else, I dont believe that on a whole the nature of both men & women is equal/the same.
 
"O Lord, forgive me, my parents and Muslims in the Hereafter. O Lord, show mercy on them as they showed mercy to me when I was young."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abuayisha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2008 at 5:22am
Originally posted by seekshidayath seekshidayath wrote:

   
WHy are women to stand in last rows while is salah ? WHats the wisdom behind that ? Why don't you now say, even we are equal, mixing allowed -- why shud we stand behind.  
 

Every row of performing salat is good, however unnecessary mixing is undesirable, thus we find the best row for men is the front and the best for women is the back.

 

      Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported: The Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said, "The best of the men's rows (in Salat) is the first row and the worst is the last; but the best of the woman's row is the last and the worst of their rows is the first.''
[Muslim].

 

  Ali Ibn Abi Taalib once remarked:

     �If the religion was according to opinion, it would be more fitting to wipe the bottom of the sock, rather than the top. Surely, I saw Allah�s Messenger (P.B.U.H) wiping over the tops of his socks.� (Abu Dawud and Ad-Daraqutni).

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seekshidayath View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seekshidayath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2008 at 2:38am
 
JazakAllah for your response brother

I don't say, anyone of them are  superior or inferior. But the distribution of responsiblities vary between men and women. They are n't distributed equally. Anyways, i shall not comment over your post right now. Am waiting for an other question to be answered.

Why are women to stand last in the rows while offering salah ?

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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abuayisha View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abuayisha Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 July 2008 at 11:00pm
Originally posted by seekshidayath seekshidayath wrote:

 
Why is it said that we need two witnesses instead of one, and why is it asked for a woman to remind the other ? 
 

The Qur'anic verse known as "verse of indebtedness" in which Allah prescribes writing debt contracts as a precautionary measure is: (O ye who believe! When ye deal with each other, in transactions involving future obligations in a fixed period of time, reduce them to writing. Let a scribe write down faithfully as between the parties: let not the scribe refuse to write: as Allah Has taught him, so let him write. Let him who incurs the liability dictate, but let him fear His Lord Allah, and not diminish aught of what he owes. If they party liable is mentally deficient, or weak, or unable Himself to dictate, let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses, out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women, such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can remind her.) (Al-Baqarah 2:282)

 

The reason for variations in the number of male and female witnesses required is given in the same passage. No reference is made to the inferiority or superiority of one gender's witness or the other's. The only reason given is to corroborate the female's witness and prevent unintended errors in the perception of the business deal. The Arabic term used in this passage, tadhilla, literally means "loses the way," "gets confused," or "errs." But are females the only gender that may err and need corroboration of their testimony? Definitely not, and that is why the general rule of testimony in Islamic law is to have two witnesses, even when they are both male.

One possible interpretation of the requirements related to this particular type of testimony is that in numerous societies, past and present, women generally may not be heavily involved with and experienced in business transactions. As such, they may not be completely cognizant of what is involved. Therefore, corroboration of a woman's testimony by another woman who may be present ascertains accuracy and, hence, justice. It would be unreasonable to interpret this requirement as a reflection on the worth of women's testimony, as it is the only exception discerned from the text of the Qur'an. This may be one reason why a great scholar like At-Tabari could not find any evidence from any primary text (Qur'an or hadith) to exclude women from something more important than testimony: being herself a judge who hears and evaluates the testimony of others.

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seekshidayath View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seekshidayath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 July 2008 at 10:40pm
 
But you did not answer my two questions. Those lines of my post which were highlighted were my opinions, which i did not present with Quran and sunnah.
 
WHy are women to stand in last rows while is salah ? WHats the wisdom behind that ? Why don't you now say, even we are equal, mixing allowed -- why shud we stand behind. When you don't spread fitnah, and when you are in hijab, why don't you stand amongst men. WHy are you limiting Islam only till salah ? Why  do you not follow in other matters of life too. Culture can be changed. It is we who make the culture and break it.
 
Why are two witnesses of women equated to men.
 
Why is it then said that , if you forget let the other woman remind her ? WHy is it not said to man ? Why women are specifically mentioned.
 
Don't forget that we cannot change these rules of Islam for sake of culture. When we submit ourselves to Allah swt, we are to follow His rules.
 
Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hayfa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 July 2008 at 7:53pm

So you think it is rare for women to have better memories then men??  As the following scientific articles point out.. there are different types of memory. And women excel in certain areas.. and men in others. Read about gender differences in memory.

 

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2294/is_2002_Dec/ai_98125314

 

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/98144.php

 

The whole issue with finance and having a friend is that men rule the money world. If you are not typically in the "men"s world then you are less likely to be treated as correctly. And clearly some will take advanctage of you. It is like many other areas.. done for the protection of women. Cause there are unscrupulous people out there. Best to have a witness. Or as they do nowadays.. put it in writing.

 

If there are any studies that universally say that women re weaker in memory bring it forth.

 

Whenever there is a fight or difference between a husband and a wife, its the wife who returns first to reconcile {says sorry} , even if she is correct. She forgets all that happened and soon overcomes from that stress that  happened earlier.

 
No way.. women remember everything.. and trust me..  you can think that.. but we women know and don�t forget. Wink 
 

Alhmadullilah, there are many women in Islam who memorise Qur'an. The qualities of women which are little less than men {cleared in my earlier post}, like forgetfulness, and all others, are natural and general.

 

Where is the proof?? How do you make that assumption. Considering that men have better education in much of the Muslim world the pool of people to choose from for women is limited. Its like if women are given same opportunities as men they often outperform men in many areas.  You can see that in western society. Women are outnumbering men in law and medical schools. The men are not able to keep up academically with women now that women have same access to education.   If you gave 1000 men and 1000 women the same training and access then you can compare.  You'd have to do a controlled measured study to make this more then just perception.

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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