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From where did the trinity teaching come? |
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Mansoor_ali 
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Male Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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 Posted: 09 April 2011 at 8:20am |
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To AgnesDei My friend, in each of the verses you quoted from the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus is once again asserting that he and God are one. It is seen especially in the 7th verse. Where Satan is attempting to coerce Jesus into throwing himself down from the cliff, Jesus specifically says "Do not tempt the Lord thy God......meaning himself, as that is who Satan was tempting! Verse 4 says: Jesus answered, �It is written: �Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.�[b]� Here Jesus clearly says that he is only a man.Jesus clearly admits his human nature in verse 4.How Jesus can be God after admitting his human nature in verse 4?Let us read further.Verse 8 and 9 say: 8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 �All this I will give you,� he said, �if you will bow down and worship me.� Now if Jesus was God then how Satan could say to Jesus for worship him(Satan)?It clearly shows that even Satan knew that Jesus is not God but Christ,Messiah of God.Let's read verse 10: 10 Jesus said to him, �Away from me, Satan! For it is written: �Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.�[e]� If Jesus was God then why he didnot tell satan in these words "Worship me,and serve me only"? Jesus didnot say it.It further proves that Jesus is not God and "thou shall not tempt 'the Lord thy God." is not referring to Jesus but Father. |
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AgnesDei
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Joined: 17 March 2011 Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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Posted: 09 April 2011 at 11:14am |
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Never did Jesus "admit" that he was ONLY a man. However, if you study Christianity you will see that we believe that Jesus was both FULLY human and divine while he was here on earth. He told him to worship only the Lord thy God.....because that was who is was, and still is and always will be. He did not say "worship ME only, because we are to worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which are the 3 separate entities comprising the ONE eternal God. Monsoor, Jesus is both the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
Peace,
Agnes Dei
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IssaEl999
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Joined: 10 March 2011 Status: Offline Points: 336 |
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Posted: 10 April 2011 at 8:20am |
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Al Injil ( The Evangel , Revelation In Arabic ) 22 Chapter Of The Prophet / Messiah Jesus 22 ; 18 - 19 [ Revealed 96 A.D. ]
'' For Surely I Bear Witness To All Who Hear The Words Of This Prophecy In This Scroll , If Anyone Adds Unto These Things , So Allah Will Add Unto Him The Plagues Of The Things Written In This Book , And If Anyone Takes Away From The Words Of The Scroll Of This Prophecy , Allah Will Drop His Share From The Scroll Of Life And From The Holy City , And From What Is Written In This Scroll .
Allah / Yahuwa has placed a Seal thereof , to protect this book from those glorly seekers who wish to Misguide The Unlearned . Allah chooses whom He wills to receive Divine Knowledge and Wisdom and Only He can decide when this Wisdom will be Disclosed .
Al Qur'aan ( The Koran ) 114 Books Of Ahmad ( The Prophet / Apostle Muhammad ) 87 ; 269 [ Revealed 624 - 626 A.D. ]
'' And He ( Allah ) Gives The ( Wisdom )The Know How To Whom He Pleases , And Whoever Is Given The ( Wisdom ) The Know How , Certainly Was Given A Lot Of Good Wealth , Success And Knowledge And None Will Remember , Except Those Who Have Brains ( Intellect ) .
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El's Holy Qur'aan , States In Chapter 17 ; 81 , '' And Say ; Truth Has ( Now ) Arrived , And Falsehood Perished ; For Falsehood Is ( By Its Nature ) Bound To Perish (81 ) .
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honeto
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Male Islam Joined: 20 March 2008 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 2487 |
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Posted: 10 April 2011 at 6:22pm |
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Agnes,
true, accroding to the Quran, Mary (may God be pleased with her) was the a pure women, who God choose for a miracle virigin birth of a son, who was to be a prophet.
Making her images and idols or of any living creature as a matter of fact is forbidden by God, both in Islam and in the Bible. I live in the Catholic heartland (not to mention my own wife comes from a Catholic background and I know a lot more than I write about Catholics) where people make altars in their homes with idols of stone or wood some of them are now made in China of plactic and other material as well. They think these idols represent Mary, they kneel down in front of the statue and ask her favors. Is is anything else other than idol worship?
Yes, we do ask each other to pray for us, but we do not ask anyone who is dead to pray for us, like I cannot ask my father (may God forgive him his mistakes and grant him Paradise) because he cannot hear me. So because he is a human and so was Mary, and a human after death do not hear, only God Almighty can hear us, all the time. I know this practice of asking saints (on their graves) is a practice of a very small number of Muslims as well, but it is wrong. Like I said asking a dead person does not do anyone any good, instead it is a form of disbelief and a sin.
Peace,
Hasan Edited by honeto - 10 April 2011 at 6:48pm |
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The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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AgnesDei
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Joined: 17 March 2011 Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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Posted: 10 April 2011 at 6:42pm |
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Posted by Hasan:
"
Agnes,
true, accroding to the Quran, Mary (may God bew pleased with her) was the a pure women, who God choose for a miracle virigin birth of a son, who was to be a prophet.
Making her images and idols or of any living creature as a matter of fact is forbidden in Islam, and I see the same in OT. On top of that kneeling and asking in front of that creation of men and asking her favors is what else but idol worship.
Yes, we do ask each other to pray for us, but we do not ask anyone who is dead to pray for us, because they are human, and a human after death do not hear, only God Almighty can hear us, all the time. I know this practice of asking saints (on their graves) is a practice of a very small number of Muslims as well, but it is wrong. Like I said asking a dead person does not so anyone any good.
Peace,
Hasan"
My dear Hasan,
We do not worship idols. It is a grave sin in the Catholic Church. Their images are not to worship, but to remember them. This is a real myth that we worship idols....not so. We honor them for the Godly lives they led, and we strive to be more like them. That's what the statues are about. We do not believe the saints, including Mary, are spiritually dead. They are dead to this life as we know it....but to die is to gain eternal life forever. For this reason, we ask their help and intercession.
Peace be with you,
AgnesDei |
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Mansoor_ali
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Male Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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Posted: 13 April 2011 at 4:34am |
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To AgnesDei Never did Jesus "admit" that he was ONLY a man. However, if you study Christianity you will see that we believe that Jesus was both FULLY human and divine while he was here on earth. No where Jesus claimed that he was both human and divine.You are putting your own words into the mouth of Jesus Christ. He told him to worship only the Lord thy God.....because that was who is was, and still is and always will be. He did not say "worship ME only, because we are to worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which are the 3 separate entities comprising the ONE eternal God. Monsoor, Jesus is both the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. No where Jesus said worship the Father,Son and Holy Spirit.Even in verse 10 of Matthew 4 Jesus didnot say "worship me" but he said "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.� Jesus here was clearly directing satan to GOD Almighty; a being other than Jesus. Jesus did not tell satan "worship me". "if you will bow down and worship me." It is crystal clear that satan knew Jesus as a Messenger from GOD Almighty, and not GOD Almighty Himself. Otherwise, he wouldn't dare to tell his Creator that. |
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AgnesDei
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Posted: 13 April 2011 at 5:38am |
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My dear Mansoor, I want to make one thing implicitly clear.....never would I attempt to put words into the mouth of Jesus Christ! All I state comes from Him in the Holy Bible as it has been written over 2,000 years ago. You say that you consider him at least one of the highest prophets, but if that is truly so, why would you not believe His words? By not believing what He himself has said you are in essence calling Jesus a liar.
Now, regarding the divinity and humanity of Jesus Christ, I offer you the following. I hope this will help you see through the glass more clearly.
The human nature of Jesus Christ"Against various forms of the heresy that denies Christ is true Man stand countless and clearest testimonies of the written and unwritten Word of God. The title that is characteristic of Jesus in the New Testament is Son of Man; it occurs some eighty times in the Gospels; it was His Own accustomed title for Himself. The phrase is Aramaic, and would seem to be an idiomatic way of saying "man". The life and death and resurrection of Christ would all be a lie were He not a man, and our Faith would be vain. (1 Corinthians 15:14). "For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5). Why, Christ even enumerates the parts of His Body. "See my hands and feet, that it is I myself; handle and see: for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me to have" (Luke 24:39). St. Augustine says, in this matter: "If the Body of Christ was a fancy, then Christ erred; and if Christ erred, then He is not the Truth. But Christ is the Truth; hence His Body was not a fancy' (QQ. lxxxiii, q. 14; P.L., XL, 14). In regard to the human soul of Christ, the Scripture is equally clear. Only a human soul could have been sad and troubled. Christ says: "My soul is sorrowful even unto death" (Matthew 26:38). "Now is my soul troubled" (John 12:27). His obedience to the heavenly Father and to Mary and Joseph supposes a human soul (John 4:34; 5:30; 6:38; Luke 22:42). Finally Jesus was really born of Mary (Matthew 1:16), made of a woman (Galatians 4:4), after the angel had promised that He should be conceived of Mary (Luke 1:31); this woman is called the mother of Jesus (Matthew 1:18; 2:11; Luke 1:43; John 2:3); Christ is said to be really the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:16), the son of David (Matthew 1:1), made of the seed of David according to the flesh (Romans 1:3), and the fruit of the loins of David (Acts 2:30). So clear is the testimony of Scripture to the perfect human nature of Jesus Christ, that the Fathers held it as a general principle that whatsoever the Word had not assumed was not healed, i.e., did not receive the effects of the Incarnation." Jesus most certainly tells us to honor/worship Him and the Father in the Gospel of John:
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John 5:22-2722 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. 24 �Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. "
Peace and Understanding, Agnes Dei |
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Mansoor_ali
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Male Joined: 25 September 2008 Location: Pakistan Status: Offline Points: 584 |
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Posted: 17 April 2011 at 1:47pm |
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To AgnesDei That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.(John 5:23) Notice Jesus says that if you do not honour him then you do not honour the Father. Now what does that mean?Any person who does not believe in a prophet of God disbelieves in God also, why? Because God is commanding you to believe in those prophets, and God is sending them revelations, to deny the prophet is to deny God. So therefore by honouring Jesus, you honour the Father, because you believe in Jesus, which means you believe God sent him with his doctrine, and in doing so this honours the Father. In fact let us continue quoting the verses: 23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Notice what Jesus is saying, he is saying the person who believes what he is saying, which is basically the doctrine of God, and believe in the ONE THAT SENT HIM will have everlasting life, which is heaven and they shall not be sent to eternal condemnation which is hell. This makes things even more clear now, to honour Jesus simply means believe in him, believe in him as a prophet, once you do this, you honour the Father since you believe the Father sent Jesus, and you believe in the doctrine of the Father, therefore you shall go to heaven! |
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Mansoor_ali wrote: