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Jesus was crucified according to historia |
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JerryMyers 
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 Posted: 11 August 2018 at 7:21am |
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Yes, DavidC, you are right to point out that “ancient scripture of any faith requires careful, prayerful reading and what may seem obvious to modern readers is not always what the ancient author intended”. In other words, a misinterpretation of what God Almighty or the prophets said, as recorded in the scripture of any faith, could lead to a serious fallout from the true path of God Almighty. |
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jp the unitarian
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Posted: 11 August 2018 at 7:42pm |
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Personally I think there is a tremendous misread of the quran on this part, it is very interesting since Muhammad wrote in verse 158 that Yehovah raised him up to himself and in 159 that none of the people of the book must believe in him before his death, clearly his death and resurrection are stated in these and also in Mary 16 verses 30-34
30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
31. "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
32. "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
33"So peace is on me the day I WAS BORN, the day THAT I DIE, and the day that I SHALL BE RAISED UP TO LIFE (AGAIN)"!
34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (IT IS) A STATEMENT OF TRUTH, about which they (vainly) dispute.
Now Muhammad says in this part that, Yeshua clearly says that peace is upon him the day that he was born, the day he dies and the day he will BE RAISED UP TO LIFE AGAIN. Evidently Yeshua said these before his death, but he clearly states that he will be raised up to life again, which in the Bible is a clear reference to his resurrection and this is also stated in al nisa
158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- .
But what is really clear here is that Muhammad also believes in his death and resurrection as he himself says "it is a statement of truth about which they vainly dispute". so is Muhammad contradicting himself?
Well let's look at Al Nisa (the women verse 157 again
157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him,(663) but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
Now it is certain that the Jews did not kill Yeshua nor did they crucify him, it was the ROMANS who did this. So in effect the Jews did not kill him this was done by the ROMANS, but that he did not die on the cross is undone by what is written in Maryam v 3-34 which clearly is a reference to his death and resurrection. It is clear that even Muhammad recognized Yeshua as the one who gave us the Gospel, and this gospel is the word of the messiah, which is Yeshua. Muhammad's whole contention is about the trinity as he clearly states in Al Nisa' v171 and also in Al Ma'idah v72-73.
171. O People of the Book! Commit no excesses(675) inyour religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. SAY NOT "TRINITY" : desist:(676) it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
So it is clear that all his words have to be in accordance with the gospel of Christ, which is clearly all about his death and resurrection, which Muhammad believes and since his resurrection is our guarantee of the salvation Yehovah has granted us, it would be wise to see Muhammad's words in this perspective.
Acts 13:32 “And we bring you the Good News, the promise made to the fathers, (TS98) Acts 13:33 that Elohim has filled this for us, their children, having raised up יהושע, as it has also been written in the second Psalm, ‘You are My Son, today I have brought You forth.’ (TS98)
1Pet 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and FOR SPRINKLING WITH HIS BLOOD: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. (ESV2011) 1Pet 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD, (ESV2011) 1Pet 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, (ESV2011)
It is clear that Muhammad refusing to accept Yeshua as the son of God by birth or because of some preexistence is a clear denial of the trinity, in this I agree with him Yeshua was not preexistent and did not truly become the son of God until his resurrection, but it has to be noted that we are Allah's children. That Yeshua became the son of God by his resurrection from the dead is made clear by acts 13:33
John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, (ESV2011) John 1:13 who were BORN, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD. (ESV2011)
and that we will be also children of God by our resurrection is made clear by John 1:13, where it says we will be Born of God. The resurrection is when Yehovah raised Yeshua up to himself. This is the whole point of the Gospel, the good news of Messiah, is that we will be raised up to everlasting life because of him, because of his death and resurrection.
Acts 17:31 because He has set a day on which He is going to judge the world in righteousness by a Man whom He has appointed, having given proof of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” (TS98)
159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-
When we look at al nisa v 159 we see a perfect match with acts 17:31 which shows that Allah (Yehovah) will judge the world with Yeshua as his witness.
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2Acts
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Posted: 15 August 2018 at 1:36am |
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Jesus was clear when he said I AM The Resurrection and the Life. Cross
reference to John 6:40, John 8.58 and Exodus 3.14. The "I am"
reference in John's Gospel offer a clear look at Christ's identity. For my Father’s will is
that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life,
and I WILL raise them up at the last day.” John 6.40. In John 8:58, he answered the
religious leaders, saying, "Truly, Truly, I say to you, before Abraham
was, I am." This was a clear reference to Exodus 3:14, where God revealed
His name to Moses as "I AM." The religious leaders wanted to kill
Him was because Jesus claimed to be The Son of God in such sayings. Obviosly
more than just “ God and him being simply attuned to each other but rather
Oneness in substance. You are kind of correct in saying Jesus,
must be praying to God to make all his disciples/believers Gods too. Christians
by partaking in the resurrection actually achieve an aspect of the divine
within. You ask how can Jesus and God be one
and same when Jesus kept reminding the people that it was God Almighty who had
sent him. This was long discussed and resolved centuries before Islam. You need
to read about the Hypo static Union. You are not correct in your interpretation of John 14 and Philip. Philip was not sceptical as you claim. But he was confused. And read further where Jesus said- “Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me”. Obviously more than just a representative of God Almighty. But actually One with Him. |
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2Acts
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Posted: 15 August 2018 at 1:39am |
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The fact that Jesus
was crucified is a historical FACT. There is extensive independent, non-biblical
testimony that proves it. You say his resurrection
is just talk by other people at the time but you forget they were eye
witnesses. You were not and neither were Muslims who only came along centuries
later. Also Jesus said he would be crucified when he said - "As you know, the Passover is two days away--and the Son of Man
will be handed over to be crucified." Mathew 26.2 He also alluded to it
before hand in comparing himself tp the Temple destruction and the sign of
Jonah. And so what if Jesus
never said he had been crucified/killed and resurrected. He didn’t need to
because he demonstrated it. You are wrong about Psalm
22. It reads - Dogs surround me, a
pack of villains encircles me; they pierce my hands and my feet. All my bones
are on display; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my clothes among
them and cast lots for my garment. This lines up with
the Gospel account and not the Quran. |
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Peace maker
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Posted: 23 August 2018 at 3:18am |
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Muslim 75 Quote that the betrayer was crucified and the betrayer was Judas. So if someone else was crucified instead the Who was this person by name? Why would Allah promise that the Messiah should be crucified and afterwards chance His mind that Allah misled mankind and lie so Allah was a lying God He lied to the Jews and 600 years latter He told the Muslims the truth so ironic. Muhammad himself did not know what to copy in the Quran about the crucifixion so He made his own story in the Quran. Then the Historians must have also lied. “At this time there was a wise man … Jesus. … good, and …
virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his
disciples. Pilate condemned Him to be crucified and to die.” (Josephus. 90AD.
Antiquities xviii. 33 Josephus was a Jewish
Historian) “Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by
Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius” (Tacitus. 117 AD.
Annals XV. 44. Tacitus was a Roman
Historian) Their testimony agrees in broad-brush strokes with the gospels
that Jesus was indeed crucified. This is important because many of the details
in Psalm 22 are simply particulars of the act of being crucified. If the gospel
writers were going to make up or grossly distort the actual events to make them
‘fit’ Psalm 22 then they would basically have had to make up the whole
crucifixion, yet no one denies his crucifixion, and Josephus explicitly states
that this is how he was executed. Who is hands and feet is pierced in Psalm 22. Psalm 22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has
encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet.17 I can count all my
bones; people stare and gloat over me.18 They divide my garments among them and
cast lots for my clothing |
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JerryMyers
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Posted: 03 September 2018 at 10:03pm |
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The Quran never said Judas was crucified as a replacement for Jesus, altho’, there may be some opinions among the Muslims that it was Judas, but, it never came from the Quran. The Quran only said Jesus was not killed nor was he crucified. It’s not important to know who was really crucified (instead of Jesus) just as it’s not important to know the name of the man who hammered the nails into the hands and feet of the crucified man. What is important is that Jesus was not killed nor was he crucified.
When did Allah promise that the Messiah would or should be crucified ? Allah did not lie to the Jews – it’s their own tendency (like Christians today) to listen to their elders/leaders instead of Jesus, especially his words after the so-called ‘resurrection’ that led them to believe Jesus was crucified, killed and resurrected.
That, of course, would be your own misguided opinion. Muhammad, like Jesus, can only preach what God Almighty have told him. In the Quran, God revealed to Muhammad that Jesus was not killed nor was he crucified, but it was made to appear so unto them.
Actually, the accounts of the historians DO NOT fully agree with the words of Jesus or Psalm 22, although, they agreed with the accounts of scholars up to the point of the trial when Jesus was given the death sentence. However, I am sure you will agree, agreeing with Jesus and Psalm 22 is far more important than agreeing with scholars and histo-rians. Try reading Psalm 22 beyond verse 18. Psalm 22:1-18 basically prophesized what ‘was made to appear so unto them’. Psalm 22:19 onwards prophesized God will rescue and save Jesus. It’s also clearly mentioned in Psalm 20:6, God will save His anointed one – “Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; He will hear him from His holy heaven with the saving strength of His right hand” - KJV. |
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JerryMyers
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Posted: 04 September 2018 at 5:03am |
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'Jesus was crucified' is NOT a historical FACT, it is a historical OPINION passed thru the centuries till today. As you correctly said, it’s a non-biblical testimony, meaning, it’s not supported by the scripture but supported by the OPINIONS of scholars and historians.
Well, Jesus in Matthew 26:2 clearly said he WILL BE HANDED OVER. That clearly tells us Jesus was fully aware that he was about to be arrested, be wrongly trial from which he then expected to be sentenced to death by crucifixion, which happened to be the capital punishment of the day. That was just an expectation or anticipation on Jesus’ part based on the situation he was in at that time. Expectation or anticipation of something to happen does not mean it will certainly happen – it’s just an expectation or anticipation.
I assume you are referring to John 2:19 about the destruction of the temple and rebuilding it in 3 days. Right ?? I hope you can think with logic and rationale when reading John 2:13-22. If you read those verses and paused a while at John 2:19 where Jesus said “Destroy the temple and I will raise it again in 3 days” and ask yourself “Why would Jesus be talking about his body when the annoyed crowd was merely questioning his authority” ? The logical and rational answer would be he was not talking about his body BUT he said those words in response to the crowd’s questioning of his authority. He was using a ‘hyperbole figure of speech’ in his response to show that his authority came from the Highest Authority that is, from God Himself. Sure, John 2:21 said directly he was talking about his body and indirectly implied of his future ‘crucifixion and resurrection’ but the verses of John 2:21-22 are so out of place in the context of the crowd’s questioning Jesus’ authority that one had to wonder whether those verses in John 2:21-22 are fabricated. Mark’s version of the same event as recorded in Mark 11:27-33 is more logical to accept as Jesus’ response (to the questioning of his authority by the crowd) – it’s the kind of response you can expect from Jesus, and of course, nothing about Jesus talking about his body in Mark’s version of the same event. So, why did Mark not mention about Jesus’ body as a comparison to the destruction of the temple if that was the intention of Jesus ?? Answer is obvious – Mark recorded the true event of what happened at the temple while John added his own twist to the event. What about the sign of Jonah ?? Firstly, let us understand what is meant by ‘a sign’. A sign is defined as a perceptible indication of something not immediately apparent (as a visible clue of something that has happened). In other words, a sign is an indirect indicator or a clue to another event or implication, in short, it cannot be a direct indicator such as “3 days and 3 night’. In the context of religious scriptures, a sign is normally given to authenticate God’s Words or to confirm and convince the people of the claims of His prophets. In the case of the sign of Jonah, these Pharisees and teachers are asking Jesus to show a sign that he was truly the Messiah when they have already seen many miracles performed by Jesus which would have convinced many people as signs that he is indeed the Messiah and a prophet of God. So, instead of asking God for another sign to convince these people, Jesus instead decided to tell them to look at the sign of Jonah, which would be their final chance to believe - “But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.” As a sign is not a direct pointer, the sign of Jonah cannot be about the 3 days and 3 nights that Jesus was said to be in the tomb. While, there’s no questions about Jonah being ‘in the belly of the fish’, there’s questions of Jesus being ‘in the belly of the earth’ as he was never truly buried. According to the Bible, he was placed in a tomb which hardly can be described as ‘in the belly or heart of the earth’. So, it’s quite amusing to see people tripping over each other trying to explain the ‘math logic’ of the ‘3 day and 3 nights’ puzzle when the ‘sign of Jonah’ had nothing to do at all with the 3 days and 3 nights that Jesus was said to have spent in the tomb. Moreover, we cannot be certain for sure ‘Jesus’ was in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights. We cannot simply assume and say when Mary Magdalene came early Sunday morning and found the tomb empty, therefore, ‘Jesus’ must have just left the tomb minutes before Mary Magdalene came. ‘Jesus’ could have left the tomb on Saturday or maybe Friday or he could very well have left the tomb on Thursday night itself, just hours after he was placed in the tomb and nobody knew he was no longer in the tomb until Sunday morning when Mary Magdalene came and found the tomb empty. So, what is the sign of Jonah if it’s not about the ‘3 days and 3 nights’ Jesus was said to be in the tomb ?? To answer that, we need to understand what happened to Jonah and Jesus. Jonah was thrown into the rough sea and he was swallowed by a big fish and he was not seen alive for 3 days and 3 nights. Do the people expect him to survive the rough sea and after being swallowed by the big fish ?? Answer is obviously ‘NO’. BUT after 3 days and 3 nights, the big fish vomited Jonah out from its belly onto the beach. Was he killed ?? Again, no, in fact, not only was he not killed, he was not even injured but very much alive. Now, let’s look at what happened to Jesus. Jesus was said to be crucified and killed on Thursday evening/night and thus he was last seen alive on Thursday too that is, before he was said to be crucified and was not seen too (after he was said to be placed in the tomb) until Sunday which Christians said the duration of which was 3 days and 3 nights. When Jesus reappeared to Magdalene, was Jesus alive ?? The answer is YES, and not only was Jesus alive, he was also unharmed - there’s not a single verse in the Bible in which Jesus said he was injured (due to the crucifixion) AFTER the so-called ‘resurrection’. Thus, the sign of Jonah is really about the fact that both men are thought to be killed, not seen alive for 3 days and 3 nights, but, in reality, they are both very much alive throughout ‘the 3 days and 3 nights’. Both Jonah and Jesus have total faith in God and in their predicaments, had prayed to God Almighty to be saved and God heard and answered their prayers.
Jesus never demonstrated his crucifixion or resurrection - only people misinterpreted his words and thus, think so.
Well, I have already responded to ‘Peace maker’ on Psalm 22, so you can check that in my response to him earlier.
On the contrary – Psalm 22, in context, lined up perfectly with the Quran’s claim that Jesus “was not killed nor was he crucified but it was made to appear so unto them”. As told to ‘Peace maker’, you need to read Psalm 22 in its totality, NOT just up to verse 18 and ignore verse 19 onwards. |
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asep garut
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Posted: 04 September 2018 at 6:50pm |
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When arguing about the truth of the Scriptures,
it's certain that each of the arguments displayed is the most correct. But
please don't forget the history of truth taught by the messengers of God, the
Prophet Moses, the Prophet Isa (Jesus), and the Prophet Muhammad, they were the
messengers of God who were given the correct Books. The Qur'an proves:
“And this Qur’an is not such as could ever be produced by other than Allah, but it is a confirmation of the revelation which was before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah), and the Injeel (Gospel)], and a full explanation of the Book (i.e. laws, decreed for mankind), wherein there is no doubt, from the Lord of the ‘Alamin (all things of universe)” (Qur’an: Yunus 10: 37) Another history that should not be forgotten is the words of God written in His Books. Example: Revelation 22:18 "I testify to everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book:" If someone adds something to these words, God will add to him the calamities written in this book." 22:19 "And if someone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take his share from the tree of life and from the holy city, as written in this book." This is the words of Jesus himself that the people of Jesus 'and Moses' times liked to change the Book. That's why Jesus has given a threat to those who like to change the scriptures. As a result of their actions, today there is collection book of stories from Luke's that is different from Matthew's version, and also a collection of Mark's that is different from John's version. Example: "Are Jesus' disciples allowed to carry sticks on the way?" In Matthew 10:10 it's said "can", but in Marcus 6: 8-10 it's said "Can not" (This must be our reflection that is given common sense by God) The Qur'an does not state that the previous Books were false, but the Qur'an only states that the people of the Book like to replace, change, hide and add to the Word of God in His Scriptures before the Qur'an revealed. “They
did not estimate Allah with an estimation due to Him when they said:’ Nothing
did Allah send down to any human being (by revelation)’. Say (O Muhammad):’ Who
then sent down the Book which Musa (Moses) brought, a light and a guidance to
mankind which you (the Jews) have made into separate papersheets, disclosing
some of it and concealing much. And you that which neither you or nor your
fathers knew.’ Say: ‘Allah (sent it down).’ Then leave them to play in their
vain discussions.” (Qur’an: Al An‘am 6:91)
What some Muslims say that the crucifixion is Judas, it doesn't seem to need to be questioned about its truth, but what must be our thinking is the word of God which states that the Prophet Isa was not killed and not crucified but replaced by someone else. Qur’an: An Nisa 4:157 “And because of their saying (in boast),: ‘we killed Messiah Isa (Jesus), son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah’, but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but the resemble of Isa (Jesus) was put over another man, and those who differ therein are full of doubts. They have no certain knowledge, they follow nothing but conjecture. For surely, they killed him not (Jesus). Qur’an: An Nisa 4:158 “But Allah raised him [Isa (Jesus)] up (with his body and soul) unto Himself. Allah Allah is Ever All-Powerful, All-Wise.” As far as my research and knowledge, Paul has falsified the teachings of Prophet Isa (Jesus). Paul was of Jewish descent, but some Jews believed in the Talmud more than the Torah, so that some of them (Jews) were not godless to Jesus, but they called Yahweh (the Prophet Yaqub) as God. My conclusion: All the Prophets are God's messengers, they invite people to the light of truth according to God, not according to themselves. All the books revealed by God are definitely use the language of His Apostles where they are. Let us think together about the truth from God by not following the desires of our own hearts. May God bless us. |
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DavidC wrote: