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Jesus was crucified according to historia

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Andalus View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 May 2008 at 4:34pm
 
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LOL!!  Anadulas - you are not proving your stance, just dismissing each with comedic comments.
 
My stance is that the piece you posted is so full of holes that it does notprovide a single solid argument. That is my stance, which was shown. Dismissing claims on the grounds of fallacies is the point.
 
Quote
 
You say revelation most important- the Gospel which the Quran verifies says Jesus was crucified.
 
 
I discussed the fact that the year of a revelation is irrelevant in terms of the time that has passed about a given event contained in the revelation. Given that a revelation is from God, that it would be hte most historically accurate. The point about the time period of the revelation vs the time period some oral narrative was written is a moot point.
 
 
The Quran states that Jesus was not killed by the Jews.
 
 
 
 
 
Quote  
What is your understanding of the verses?  What since Ishmael/Isaac was not sacrificed is the tremendous sacrifice?  Who was the victim?  What ransom?

037.103
YUSUFALI: So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
PICKTHAL: Then, when they had both surrendered (to Allah), and he had flung him down upon his face,
SHAKIR: So when they both submitted and he threw him down upon his forehead,

037.104
YUSUFALI: We called out to him "O Abraham!
PICKTHAL: We called unto him: O Abraham!
SHAKIR: And We called out to him saying: O Ibrahim!

037.105
YUSUFALI: "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
PICKTHAL: Thou hast already fulfilled the vision. Lo! thus do We reward the good.
SHAKIR: You have indeed shown the truth of the vision; surely thus do We reward the doers of good:

037.106
YUSUFALI: For this was obviously a trial-
PICKTHAL: Lo! that verily was a clear test.
SHAKIR: Most surely this is a manifest trial.

037.107
YUSUFALI: And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
PICKTHAL: Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim.
SHAKIR: And We ransomed him with a Feat sacrifice.

 
Your question is cryptic. What is it that you are trying to ask. A coherent question is in order.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote believer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2008 at 5:36am
We all know that it was a trial test of Abraham's obedience.  I am asking since there was no sacrifice- it was stopped whether you believe it was Ishmael/Isaac.- 
 
What is your understanding of the verses?  What since Ishmael/Isaac was not sacrificed is the tremendous sacrifice?  Who was the victim?  What ransom?
 
I know that the Quran does not say what Muslims believe.  GOD did take Jesus up to Him, GOD ended His time on earth.  The Jews believe they had control of the situation.  Mohammad is saying that the Jews did not have the power over Jesus in killing Him- GOD did. 
 
GOD ended Jesus' time on the Cross early.
 
Mark 15
 
42It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached, 43Joseph of Arimathea, a prominent member of the Council, who was himself waiting for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body. 44Pilate was surprised to hear that he was already dead. Summoning the centurion, he asked him if Jesus had already died. 45When he learned from the centurion that it was so, he gave the body to Joseph.
 
003.055
YUSUFALI: Behold! Allah said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection: Then shall ye all return unto me, and I will judge between you of the matters wherein ye dispute.
PICKTHAL: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee and causing thee to ascend unto Me, and am cleansing thee of those who disbelieve and am setting those who follow thee above those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then unto Me ye will (all) return, and I shall judge between you as to that wherein ye used to differ.
SHAKIR: And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to terminate the period of your stay (on earth) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.
 

004.156
YUSUFALI: That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
PICKTHAL: And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny;
SHAKIR: And for their unbelief and for their having uttered against Marium a grievous calumny.

004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
PICKTHAL: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
SHAKIR: And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the messenger of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

004.158
YUSUFALI: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
PICKTHAL: But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
SHAKIR: Nay! Allah took him up to Himself; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 May 2008 at 2:43pm
believer,
the issue before us as you started was, in your words, "Jesus was crucified according to historia"
you  heard Islamic understanding on that issue. You have right to keep your and we to our understanding. You offered quotes in your argument, we provided ours. You are not forced to accept views and proves we provided, nor are we bound to accept yours.
I think each one of us can see and decide for ourself.
You tried to use Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his beloved son in the way of God as a comparasion here even though it does not fit here as such.
 
God tests us and it is easy to give in the way of God what we don't need, but to give in his cause something that we love so much is harder. So the test for Abraham was to give in the way of God what he loved the most. Remember that Abraham did not have any children until he was very old. When God called him to service, he asked God to give him a son. God granted his request and blessed him with a son whom he loved and who was deerest to him. Now God tests Abraham for his faith in Him by asking Abraham to sacrifice his beloved son. Abraham's faith did not shake and he was ready to offer what he loved the most. When he was about to execute his promise, God asked him to hold on, stop, as Abraham triumped in his true believe in God. Thus God accepted his willingness to sacrifice what was the most dear to Abraham. 
It was a test of faith, it was not a ransom of any kind for anything as you understand it when you said:  "Who was the victim?  What ransom?
 
Further you wrote:  "I know that the Quran does not say what Muslims believe.  GOD did take Jesus up to Him, GOD ended His time on earth.  The Jews believe they had control of the situation.  Mohammad is saying that the Jews did not have the power over Jesus in killing Him- GOD did. 
I don't know why you say that. We beleive what Quran tells us, it is you who don't believe what Quran says, right.
You are right that God did not let Jews to do what they thought they have control over, killing Jesus. God raised him up to Himself to show them who is in control. Here is the quote that states that: 
The Quran 4:157"That they said in (boast),  "we killed Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of God-,
but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, And those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no certian knowledge but only conjucture to follow. For of a surety they killed him not."
 
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 05 May 2008 at 2:50pm
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote believer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2008 at 4:38am
honeto said-"it was not a ransom of any kind for anything "
 
What is your understanding of the verses?  What since Ishmael/Isaac was not sacrificed is the tremendous sacrifice?  Who was the victim?  What ransom?

037.103
YUSUFALI: So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
PICKTHAL: Then, when they had both surrendered (to Allah), and he had flung him down upon his face,
SHAKIR: So when they both submitted and he threw him down upon his forehead,

037.104
YUSUFALI: We called out to him "O Abraham!
PICKTHAL: We called unto him: O Abraham!
SHAKIR: And We called out to him saying: O Ibrahim!

037.105
YUSUFALI: "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
PICKTHAL: Thou hast already fulfilled the vision. Lo! thus do We reward the good.
SHAKIR: You have indeed shown the truth of the vision; surely thus do We reward the doers of good:

037.106
YUSUFALI: For this was obviously a trial-
PICKTHAL: Lo! that verily was a clear test.
SHAKIR: Most surely this is a manifest trial.

037.107
YUSUFALI: And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
PICKTHAL: Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim.
SHAKIR: And We ransomed him with a Feat sacrifice.

Are you saying the above is a false statement?
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2008 at 3:32pm
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

honeto said-"it was not a ransom of any kind for anything "
 
What is your understanding of the verses?  What since Ishmael/Isaac was not sacrificed is the tremendous sacrifice?  Who was the victim?  What ransom?

037.103
YUSUFALI: So when they had both submitted their wills (to Allah), and he had laid him prostrate on his forehead (for sacrifice),
PICKTHAL: Then, when they had both surrendered (to Allah), and he had flung him down upon his face,
SHAKIR: So when they both submitted and he threw him down upon his forehead,

037.104
YUSUFALI: We called out to him "O Abraham!
PICKTHAL: We called unto him: O Abraham!
SHAKIR: And We called out to him saying: O Ibrahim!

037.105
YUSUFALI: "Thou hast already fulfilled the vision!" - thus indeed do We reward those who do right.
PICKTHAL: Thou hast already fulfilled the vision. Lo! thus do We reward the good.
SHAKIR: You have indeed shown the truth of the vision; surely thus do We reward the doers of good:

037.106
YUSUFALI: For this was obviously a trial-
PICKTHAL: Lo! that verily was a clear test.
SHAKIR: Most surely this is a manifest trial.

037.107
YUSUFALI: And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
PICKTHAL: Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim.
SHAKIR: And We ransomed him with a Feat sacrifice.

Are you saying the above is a false statement?
 
beleiver,
 It says, "we ransom him (Ishmael) with a feast sacrifice (a ram).
Hasan
39:64 Proclaim: Is it some one other than God that you order me to worship, O you ignorant ones?"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2008 at 8:24pm
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

We all know that it was a trial test of Abraham's obedience.  I am asking since there was no sacrifice- it was stopped whether you believe it was Ishmael/Isaac.- 
 
What is your understanding of the verses?  What since Ishmael/Isaac was not sacrificed is the tremendous sacrifice?  Who was the victim?  What ransom?
 
1) Ishmael nor Isac were killed.
2) Another offering was given to Abraham
3) I am the victim of odd questions about the Quran which have Christian theological assumptions buried into them
4) The Quran says a ransom was offered in terms of a great sacrifice. Hadith tells us that it was a Ram brought by Gabriel (as).
 
Quote  
I know that the Quran does not say what Muslims believe. 
 
 
The Quran states what Muslims believe.
 
 
Quote
 
 
 GOD did take Jesus up to Him, GOD ended His time on earth.  The Jews believe they had control of the situation.  Mohammad is saying that the Jews did not have the power over Jesus in killing Him- GOD did. 
 
 
 
The Quran says that God took Jesus to him, and that he was not killed. The Quran says that the Jews did not kill him.
 
 
Quote
 
GOD ended Jesus' time on the Cross early.
 
 
The Quran does not actually say this.
 
It appears as if you are trying to superimpose Christian theology onto Islam as far as you questions are formed. Keep in mind that these "assumptions" are only accepted by Christians as fact. This is why it is difficult to figure out what point you are trying to make at times.
 
Hope this helps
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andalus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 May 2008 at 8:29pm
Originally posted by believer believer wrote:

honeto said-"it was not a ransom of any kind for anything "
 
What is your understanding of the verses?  What since Ishmael/Isaac was not sacrificed is the tremendous sacrifice?  Who was the victim?  What ransom?
 
 
Believer, you are making a mountain from a mole hill. You are trying to read WAAAAAAY too much Christian theology onto the Quran. The verses are very straight forward. Niether were killed, and something else was offered in their place. Hadith says it was a special Ram from Gabriel. It is that simple. Your overly zealous notion of victimization, and sacrifices, and ransoms are terms that second century Church doctors over used and manipulated to explain the foriegn notion of Christian atonement theology, and original sin, and all the other Church interests to explain their new faith. None of these terms have the same meaning in Islam or Judaism.
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote believer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 May 2008 at 5:41am

037.107
YUSUFALI: And We ransomed him with a momentous sacrifice:
PICKTHAL: Then We ransomed him with a tremendous victim.
SHAKIR: And We ransomed him with a Feat sacrifice.

Yes I know that Ishmael/Isaac was not sacrificed.  By reading just the Quran how do you know it is a ram?  A ram is a monetous sacrifice?
 
Yes, it is true that Jesus did not die a permanent bodily death for He raised from the dead!  All is in the Gospel confirmed by Mohammad.
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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