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Jesus was crucified according to historia

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JerryMyers View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JerryMyers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2018 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

Jesus was clear when he said I AM The Resurrection and the Life. Cross reference to John 6:40, John 8.58 and Exodus 3.14. The "I am" reference in John's Gospel offer a clear look at Christ's identity.


If 'I AM' means 'God', then Jesus is actually saying "God The Resurrection" !!

Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I WILL raise them up at the last day.” John 6.40.


Yes, clearly Jesus said that because he was THE prophet of that time. Thus, naturally, those who listen and believe in him will be shown the way to eternal life and on the last day, God will raise them up (that is, elevate their status) above those who do not listen and believe in him. Likewise, Moses was THE prophet of his time. Thus, those who listen and believe in him will be shown the way to eternal life too and on the last day, God will elevate their status above those who do not listen and believe in their prophet.

Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

In John 8:58, he answered the religious leaders, saying, "Truly, Truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." This was a clear reference to Exodus 3:14, where God revealed His name to Moses as "I AM."
The religious leaders wanted to kill Him was because Jesus claimed to be The Son of God in such sayings. Obviously more than just “ God and him being simply attuned to each other but rather Oneness in substance.


Well, try reading Exodus 3:14 in context and tell me how John 8:58 can be a reference to it. If the connection is just because Jesus said “I am”, then, many people would also be God as I am (oops, did I just say "I am"??) sure everyone would have said “I am” many, many times in their lives.

Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

You are kind of correct in saying Jesus, must be praying to God to make all his disciples/believers Gods too. Christians by partaking in the resurrection actually achieve an aspect of the divine within.


Well, that’s what Christians believe BUT, is that what Jesus meant - that he's God or equal to God and that he died and rose again ?? I know Paul said you MUST believe Jesus died and rose again else your faith will be in vain BUT where in the whole Bible did Jesus say or imply the same ?? No where.

Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

You ask how can Jesus and God be one and same when Jesus kept reminding the people that it was God Almighty who had sent him. This was long discussed and resolved centuries before Islam. You need to read about the Hypo static Union.


Hypostatic union, trinity, original sin, double nature of Jesus and what have you, well, there are all man-made doctrines or concepts. Why ? Because Jesus NEVER preached such concepts or doctrines.

Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

You are not correct in your interpretation of John 14 and Philip. Philip was not sceptical as you claim. But he was con-fused. And read further where Jesus said- “Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me”. Obviously more than just a representative of God Almighty. But actually One with Him.


Philip was confused ?? Not really. Read again John 14 in context to really understand. Philip was skeptical of Jesus’ claim that he was the way, the truth and the life as in saying so, Jesus was claiming absolute monopoly of access to God. Because of his skepticism on Jesus' claim, Philip requested Jesus to show God. This, of course, disappointed Jesus as he has been among them for so long and yet they still want to see God when they have seen God’s miracles thru him or to put it figuratively, seeing him will be the same as seeing (the presence of) God.

To understand “Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me”, you must read at least, a verse earlier – “Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.” – John 14:10-11

Firstly, you should note that Jesus said “The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority” means Jesus on his own, has no authority or knowledge over what to preach or teach, other than what God had told him.

Secondly, Jesus said “Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing His work” means the miracles, the work that Jesus did was not of his own initiatives or that he has divine power to perform miracles, BUT it was God’s work and miracles performed THROUGH Jesus. It’s the same when Moses was said to split the Red Sea, it’s was not because Moses has divine super-power, but, it was God who split the sea THROUGH Moses.

The phrase 'living in me' does not literally mean God was living in Jesus, but it means the Spirit of God is with Jesus and guiding him in his works. Anyone who have complete faith in God and abide by His Rules are said to have the Spirit of God with them. So, when you understand the relationship between God and His prophets, then, you will understand that Jesus’ words “I am in the Father and the Father is in me” simply means Jesus have complete faith in God and God responded in return by having complete trust in Jesus and in the case of Jesus and Moses, that trust was translated by God performing His miracles and work THROUGH them. When you have complete faith in God, then, you are also said to be one with God.

Likewise, when Jesus prayed for all his believers - “that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me” – John 17:21. In other words, Jesus prayed to God for all his believers that they may have complete faith in God (may be one) just as he has complete faith in God (and I am in you). Jesus also prayed for all his believers to have faith in him and God (May they also be in us) so that the whole world may believe that God have sent him. So, tell me, how can Jesus be actually ONE with God (as of the same nature, substance) when he had to pray (to God) for all his believers to have faith in him and God, so that they all can believe that he was sent by God ?? Why would Jesus had to pray for all his believers ?? The obvious answer would be because Jesus knew a growing number among his believers/followers are worshiping him as God and he prayed to God for them to have total faith in God so that they will believe that he’s not God but he was sent by God.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JerryMyers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2018 at 11:43pm
Originally posted by jp the unitarian jp the unitarian wrote:

Personally I think there is a tremendous misread of the quran on this part, it is very interesting since Muhammad wrote in verse 158 that Yehovah raised him up to himself and in 159 that none of the people of the book must believe in him before his death, clearly his death and resurrection are stated in these and also in Mary 16 verses 30-34
30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
31. "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath en-joined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
32. "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
33"So peace is on me the day I WAS BORN, the day THAT I DIE, and the day that I SHALL BE RAISED UP TO LIFE (AGAIN)"!
34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (IT IS) A STATEMENT OF TRUTH, about which they (vainly) dispute.
Now Muhammad says in this part that, Yeshua clearly says that peace is upon him the day that he was born, the day he dies and the day he will BE RAISED UP TO LIFE AGAIN. Evidently Yeshua said these before his death, but he clearly states that he will be raised up to life again, which in the Bible is a clear reference to his resurrection and this is also stated in al nisa


First, Muhammad never wrote the Quran and any logical and rational man will know Muhammad could not have written the Quran. Why ? It was not only because of the message the Quran was conveying, but because of its poetic literary characteristics and styles. You need to be proficient in the language of the Arabic Quran to fully appreciate and understand what I am trying to tell you. A small example would be the presence of palindrome sentences in the Quran. A palindrome, of course, is something that could be read from the left or the right and still carry the same meaning, for example, racecar or Bob. To make a palindrome out of a short word may be easy. To make a palindrome out of a longer word is hard, but to make a palindrome out of a sentence, that is extremely difficult, and you would need a long and editorial process to succeed here. And even if you succeeded in this you would still have to think of the context of the passage that you are putting the sentence into. Muhammad, being an illiterate, could not have come out with any palindrome sentence, let alone, to place that sentence into a passage without disturbing the context of that passage.

Second, when Jesus said "So peace is on me the day I WAS BORN, the day THAT I DIE, and the day that I SHALL BE RAISED UP TO LIFE (AGAIN)", he was not talking about his ‘resurrection’ on earth as most Christians believe, he was referring to the Day of Resurrection when everyone (including himself) will be raised or in other words, every true believer believes in these 3 notable days of their life – the day they were born, the day they will die and the day they will be raised again. Every Muslims knew this and obviously, so did Jesus. So, where is your evidence that Jesus said these words just before his so-called ‘death’??


Originally posted by jp the unitarian jp the unitarian wrote:

158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- .

But what is really clear here is that Muhammad also believes in his death and resurrection as he himself says "it is a statement of truth about which they vainly dispute". so is Muhammad contradicting himself?


What is really clear here is that Jesus was not killed nor was he crucified but Allah raised him up to Himself just before the crucifixion.

Originally posted by jp the unitarian jp the unitarian wrote:

Well let's look at Al Nisa (the women verse 157 again

157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him,(663) but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Now it is certain that the Jews did not kill Yeshua nor did they crucify him, it was the ROMANS who did this. So in effect the Jews did not kill him this was done by the ROMANS, but that he did not die on the cross is undone by what is written in Maryam v 3-34 which clearly is a reference to his death and resurrection. It is clear that even Muham-mad recognized Yeshua as the one who gave us the Gospel, and this gospel is the word of the messiah, which is Yeshua. Muhammad's whole contention is about the trinity as he clearly states in Al Nisa' v171 and also in Al Ma'idah v72-73.


Come on, get real !! Fact is - the Jews plotted to kill Jesus (John 11:45-47) and the Romans, being the Law of the day, carried out the trial and execution. In other words, they (the Jews and Romans) are accountable for the death of 'Jesus' or the man they believed was Jesus.

Quran Surah Maryam 30-34 had nothing to do with the trial, the plot and the execution of ‘Jesus’, it’s about Jesus declaring who he was and that is, he is a prophet of God and indeed a servant of Allah who has made him blessed by making him kind to his mother and not overbearing or miserable, and he will be at peace the day he was born, the day that he die and the day he will be raised up again. Such was the man, Jesus, who spoke the truth but many (like the Christians today) vainly dispute his words. In saying he will be at peace the day he was born, the day that he die and the day he will be raised up again simply mean Jesus believe in life, death and the last day – the Day of Resurrection and these are beyond the knowledge of man, that is, no one knew or can decide when he will be born, when he will die and when will be the Day of Resurrection.

Originally posted by jp the unitarian jp the unitarian wrote:

171. O People of the Book! Commit no ex-cesses(675) inyour religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. SAY NOT "TRINITY" : desist:(676) it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

So it is clear that all his words have to be in accordance with the gos-pel of Christ, which is clearly all about his death and resurrection, which Muhammad believes and since his resurrection is our guaran-tee of the salvation Yehovah has granted us, it would be wise to see Muhammad's words in this perspective.


It is clear that Jesus is just a messenger of Allah and he was created by Allah’s Word just as when He created light with His Word when He willed the creation (of light) by saying, “Let there BE light” and there was light. Jesus had never preached trinity and thus, it’s better for everyone to stop saying that he’s part of a triune God. If the gospel of Christ is saying the same thing, then, yes, the Quran is in accordance to the gospel of Christ.

And how was the gospel of Jesus all about his ‘death and resurrection’ ??? And since when Muhammad believe in Jesus’ ‘death and resurrection’ as understood by the Christians ?? See my explanation earlier on the Quran verses you quoted above.

Originally posted by jp the unitarian jp the unitarian wrote:

Acts 13:32 “And we bring you the Good News, the promise made to the fathers, (TS98)

Acts 13:33 that Elohim has filled this for us, their children, having raised up יהושע, as it has also been written in the second Psalm, ‘You are My Son, today I have brought You forth.’ (TS98)

1Pet 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and FOR SPRINKLING WITH HIS BLOOD: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. (ESV2011)

1Pet 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! Ac-cording to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a liv-ing hope THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD, (ESV2011)

1Pet 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfad-ing, kept in heaven for you, (ESV2011)

It is clear that Muhammad refusing to accept Yeshua as the son of God by birth or because of some preexistence is a clear denial of the trinity, in this I agree with him Yeshua was not preexistent and did not truly become the son of God until his resurrection, but it has to be not-ed that we are Allah's children. That Yeshua became the son of God by his resurrection from the dead is made clear by acts 13:33

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, (ESV2011)
John 1:13 who were BORN, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD. (ESV2011)

and that we will be also children of God by our resurrection is made clear by John 1:13, where it says we will be Born of God. The resur-rection is when Yehovah raised Yeshua up to himself. This is the whole point of the Gospel, the good news of Messiah, is that we will be raised up to everlasting life because of him, because of his death and resurrection.

Acts 17:31 because He has set a day on which He is going to judge the world in righteousness by a Man whom He has appoint-ed, having given proof of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” (TS98)

159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a wit-ness against them;-

When we look at al nisa v 159 we see a perfect match with acts 17:31 which shows that Allah (Yehovah) will judge the world with Yeshua as his witness.


Despite what the Christians’ claim and their interpretation of the verses you quoted above, the KEY question is still - when and where exactly in the Bible did Jesus himself (not of other people’s words) say he will become son of God after he died and resurrected or where in the whole Bible did Jesus say he came to die for the sins of all mankind ?? None ! If I am to give an analogy to the Christians’ claim of Jesus, I will say it’s like watching a soccer match where there’s lot of fancy footwork and excitements BUT no goals scored !
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