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Jesus was crucified according to historia

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HafizHanif View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HafizHanif Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 August 2014 at 9:33am
Peace be with all who read this.

It takes faith to believe someone to be dead and raised to life. 

An account of Yeshua raising Lazarus to life after being dead for four days is available... and for those who witnessed it, they were challenged to believe what they saw and one could imagine what the conversations were like when speaking to Lazarus whom they saw dead and buried.

And who raised Lazurus?  Yeshua.  The same Yeshua who is believed to have spoken as an infant and who gave life to clay in the shape of a bird.  Who else can do such things or has ever done such things in the history of man?  This Yeshua was no ordinary man and quite more than a prophet as those before Him.

The entire point of the message of salvation is that God raises people to life after they taste death... and this is what was promised to David:

"Therefore my heart is glad and my tongue rejoices; my body also will rest secure, because you will not abandon me to the realm of the dead, nor will you let your faithful one see decay.  You make known to me the path of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence, with eternal pleasures at your right hand."

- Psalm 16:9-11

These are things of faith, not logic.

These are things of faith. 

The reading of things of faith through the lens of opinions and human logic produces obvious results: doubt.

What God does and can do is illogical, so how is it best explained when people don't believe what God can do ( which is anything He pleases )?

Do not think that believing the message of the gospel makes you any less a Muslim or any less zealous for God... for Christ Himself was the epitome of submission before God without equal and all others a distant second place ( and one would find this out be reading about Him in the gospel ).

What does Peter say after seeing Yeshua rise, after Yeshua appearing to him and many others in Spirit and physical form and showing the wounds from the crucifixion:

God raised him from the dead so that he will never be subject to decay. As God has said,

I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David. [ Isaiah 55:3 ]"

So it is also stated elsewhere:

You will not let your holy one see decay. [ Psalm 16 ]"

"Now when David had served Gods purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his ancestors and his body decayed. But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

Therefore, my friends, I want you to know that through Yeshua the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses. Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:

Look, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe, even if someone told you. [ Habakkuk 1:5 ]

- Acts 13:34-41

Instead of humbly searching, the scoffers then and now follow the charismatic or the revered or the powerful, but what does it say:

And he said: Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.  Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.  And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me.

- Matthew 18:3-5

Reading the arguments in this entire thread I read so much pride and arrogance, but very few actually having an open mind and open heart... very few are humble... and what does it say about that:

He mocks proud mockers but shows favor to the humble and oppressed.  The wise inherit honor, but fools get only shame.

- Proverbs 3:34-35

People who look at the earliest of manuscripts ( who perform "textual criticism" ) find that the message of Christ being murdered and risen to life hasn't changed... yet 600 years later we hear of yet another idea that contradicts the message and contradicts the secular accounts.   

Yeshua was born into a well established empire with communication traveling to all corners of that empire.  The Roman system was employed to carry the messengers.  In their wake they left the accounts and evidence of miracles performed in the Name of Yeshua.  Not every bit of account from a secular view point has survived time, but the few that have are quite convincing on their own.

To think that ancient scribes of history and those who recorded the current events simply lied or followed a lie is quite controversial.  The secular world had nothing to gain by forwarding a lie... nor did the Jews who disbelieved had anything to gain... so where is the incentive or boasting on the part of those who doubted or could care less about the message?

The Christians . . . worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. . . . [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.

- Lucian of Samsata, The Death of Peregrine, 11-13, in The Works of Lucian of Samosata, transl. by H.W. Fowler and F.G. Fowler, 4 vols. (Oxford: Clarendon, 1949), vol. 4., cited in Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 206.

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald . . . cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."

- Account in the Babylonian Talmud [ the Jewish non-believing perspective ], Habermas, The Historical Jesus, 202-03.




Edited by HafizHanif - 15 August 2014 at 9:38am
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adamwert View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote adamwert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 July 2018 at 7:20pm
For me it's kind of blasphemy to say that Jesus is God, and to say that humans killed Jesus, because that's saying that humans can kill God.  And torture him and drag him through the mud etc.  And it doesnt make sense to say humans would be rewarded by God for doing this to God either.  None of that makes sense.  That's one reason I left Christianity and became Muslim instead, because I believe Islam tells the correct version of events but Christians got confused by prophet Jesus and started saying he was a God when he was only a messenger of God.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HafizHanif Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2018 at 5:48pm
I'm going to respond to the important points and misconceptions mentioned.

First with the accusation of blasphemy, for it is nothing new:

Yeshua answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in My Father’s Name testify about Me, but you do not believe because you are not My sheep. My sheep listen to My Voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and the Father are One.”

Again His Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone Him, but Yeshua said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone Me?”

“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”

- John 10: 25-33

We see several things, but mainly that Yeshua was accused of blaspheming when claiming to be God. 

Notice the Tawhid that Yeshua proclaims!

Consider how Yeshua speaks of the hands of both the Father and His own as the same regarding salvation...

Regarding the killing of Yeshua being akin to killing God, this may seem like a logical conclusion speaking of simple replacement of words (logic)...but is actually illogical since we are speaking of spiritual matters (things of God).

Since man has yet to perceive spirit, or measure it with scientific methods, or observe it, then to speak of it must go beyond the rudiments of logical conclusions, not for the suspension of logic, but to speak of things from Above / of God.

Consider:

Yeshua answered, “I Am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. If you really know Me, you will know My Father as well. From now on, you do know Him and have seen Him.”

Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

Yeshua answered: “Don’t you know Me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I Am in the Father, and that the Father is in Me? The words I say to you I do not speak on My own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in Me, who is doing His work. Believe Me when I say that I Am in the Father and the Father is in Me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

- John 14: 6-11

Here we see the Father lives in Yeshua.

How?

Does not Islamic tradition call Yeshua the Word of God and the Spirit of God?

How did Yeshua describe God?:

God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in Truth.

- John 4: 24

We realize that it was the flesh of Yeshua that perished on the cross, not the Spirit.

Thus, it is affirmed that the Spirit nor the Word of God perished, but only the flesh of Yeshua.

Since the Father is in Yeshua, and God is Spirit, then the Spirit / the Father did not perish, but only the flesh / vessel of Messiah.

As to abandoning one ideology for another due to confusion, and thinking that ideas and concepts that came about 600 years after their occurrence are somehow more accurate than the testimonies of eye witnesses, is problematic and a bit irrational.

Notice that Muhammad's poetry (the Quran) confirms the Christians of his time (early 7th century) had the Bible in their hands. 

Where we read accusations of hiding it (al-Imran 187), we understand they must have had it in order to hide it from others, or the accusation of reading one thing and saying another (al-Baqara 59).

Regarding the accusation that Christians were confused, perhaps the only olive branch given to this accusation would be the rise of heresies which were prominent throughout Arabia in Muhammad's time.

The Quran mentions some of these heresies according to certain beliefs / dogmas, but unfortunately the accusation is laid at all Christians instead of those heretical groups... and heresies and heretical groups at that time were excommunicated and sent away from the Church and wherever the Church had prominence, thus why many heretic groups ended up in the Arabian peninsula made up of loosely associated tribes but no central government or single state as the Christian kingdoms.

To cast a shadow of confusion onto all Christians (or better stated, the Word of God / Scripture) because of the heresies or confusions of certain people claiming to be Christians is an illogical and irrational generalization... and false conclusion.

To mention whether the Bible was 'changed' or 'altered' before it is accused, read this article I wrote regarding whether or not the Quran actually says the Bible had been changed or altered... or if the Quran was accusing the manners of certain Jews and Christians Muhammad was interacting with. Notice that the actual Quran, or its message, is not making accusations of change in the Word of God, but speaks to the manners it has been handled by certain people... thus confirming even from the Quran that the Bible had not been changed.

This leaves the reader(s) to ponder the message of the Gospel and to search their hearts if it speaks to them... but to suppose a man (Muhammad) and a people far removed from the core of Christian theology and teachings (non-heretical Christians) to be more accurate about what Christians believed, is to take a leap far from logical and rational discussion... and simply take legends of hearsay and suspicions as truth.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Caringheart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25 July 2018 at 6:07pm
Originally posted by adamwert adamwert wrote:

For me it's kind of blasphemy to say that Jesus is God, and to say that humans killed Jesus, because that's saying that humans can kill God.  And torture him and drag him through the mud etc.  And it doesnt make sense to say humans would be rewarded by God for doing this to God either.  None of that makes sense.  That's one reason I left Christianity and became Muslim instead, because I believe Islam tells the correct version of events but Christians got confused by prophet Jesus and started saying he was a God when he was only a messenger of God.  

Greetings adamwert,
As it was recorded by one of Jesus' first apostles, by the name of John.  In the book of John, chapter 10, verses 30,31.
Jesus said, "I and My Father are One"  ... 'and the Jews took up stones to stone Him, for they understood this to be blasphemy'
The Jews understood precisely what Jesus was saying, and so did his apostles, who were also Jews.


Later, when one of the apostles, Philip questions, it is recorded by the apostle John;

Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me


We may not understand these words of His to the full, but we take them as they are,
for the Jews who followed Him, they understood.  The things that Jesus told them were fulfilled.

as the Bible tells us;
'We see now only as in a glass darkly, we understand only in part;
  but then [when we meet the Creator face to face] we will know in full'

asalaam, and blessings to you,

Caringheart


Let us seek Truth together
Blessed be God forever
"I believe in Jesus as I believe in the sun... not because I see it, but because by it, I see everything else.: - C.S.Lewis
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peace maker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 August 2018 at 12:59pm
Muslim 75.
If you have read the Bible then you would read that Judas commit suicide before Jesus was crucified so how can they crucified a dead man?
This is just st**idity to found a excuse for an excuse to reach your point.
Muhammad have twisted everything in the Quran that he copied from the bible to suit him.

Matthew 27 

Judas Hangs Himself

1 Early in the morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people made their plans how to have Jesus executed. 2 So they bound him, led him away and handed him over to Pilate the governor. 3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4 “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.” “What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.” 5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. 6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.” 7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JerryMyers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2018 at 1:45am
Originally posted by Caringheart Caringheart wrote:

As it was recorded by one of Jesus' first apostles, by the name of John. In the book of John, chapter 10, verses 30,31.
Jesus said, "I and My Father are One" ... 'and the Jews took up stones to stone Him, for they understood this to be blasphemy'
The Jews understood precisely what Jesus was saying, and so did his apostles, who were also Jews.

Later, when one of the apostles, Philip questions, it is recorded by the apostle John;
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me

We may not understand these words of His to the full, but we take them as they are, for the Jews who followed Him, they under-stood. The things that Jesus told them were fulfilled.

as the Bible tells us;
'We see now only as in a glass darkly, we understand only in part; but then [when we meet the Creator face to face] we will know in full'



Greetings, Caringheart,

The Jews in Jesus’ time, NEVER understood (or at least, most of the times) what Jesus was saying as he always speaks in parables. His close disciples understood this fact and that’s why they asked Jesus why he spoke in parables to the people (when most of them cannot understand the true meaning of these parables), to which Jesus responded that only those who truly have it will understand what he was saying and those who do not, will only be “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand” – (Matthew 13:10-11).

So, yes, the Jews picked up stones to stone Jesus because they understood, or rather MISunderstood Jesus as saying he’s God when he said “I and my Father are one”. Jesus, in saying this, was of course, not committing blasphemy, as he did not actually mean to say he and God are one and the same person, BUT, he meant to say that he and God are attuned to each other in complete unity, purpose and mission. If Jesus meant to say he and God are one and the same person, then Jesus, must be praying to God to make all his disciples/believers Gods too when he said “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them MAY BE ONE, Father, just as YOU ARE IN ME AND I AM IN YOU. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that YOU HAVE SENT ME. I have given them the glory that you gave me, THAT THEY BE ONE AS WE ARE ONE— I in them and you in me—SO THAT THEY MAY BE BROUGHT TO COMPLETE UNITY. Then the world will know that YOU SENT ME and have loved them even as you have loved me” – JOHN 17:20-23).

Again, not to mention, how can Jesus and God be one and same person when Jesus kept (repeatedly) reminding the people that it was God Almighty who had sent him, indicating he and God are separate beings as he CANNOT be sending himself ??

Similarly, people misunderstood Jesus as claiming to be God when he said “he that hath seen me hath seen the Father”. Jesus was responding to Philip who was skeptical of Jesus’ claim that he’s the way to God. Jesus, in response, was obviously disappointed with Philip as he has been with his disciples for so long and they have seen his works, his miracles, etc, and yet they still doubt him as a representative of God Almighty and they still wanted to see God Almighty in person as if to verify his words, when they should not have any more doubts about him being the chosen representative of God Almighty. To put that in an analogy, imagine you, as a Deputy President of your Company, are acting on behalf of your Company’s President who had given you full authority to act on his behalf while he was away abroad. Yet, there are still people who insisted to see the President in person as they are skeptical of your authority to act on behalf of the company’s President. This may disappoint you and prompted you to say to them ‘Look, guys, I represented the President in his absence, so, seeing me is the same as you seeing the President”. This, does not mean, you and the President are one and the same person, of course !! Likewise, Jesus was saying the same thing too, that is, seeing him is the same as seeing God Almighty too as he’s the chosen representative/prophet of God Almighty who had sent him to them.

Peace.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JerryMyers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2018 at 2:00am
Originally posted by Peace maker Peace maker wrote:

Muslim 75.
If you have read the Bible then you would read that Judas commit suicide before Jesus was crucified so how can they crucified a dead man?
This is just st**idity to found a excuse for an excuse to reach your point.
Muhammad have twisted everything in the Quran that he copied from the bible to suit him.

Matthew 27 

Judas Hangs Himself

1 Early in the morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people made their plans how to have Jesus executed. 2 So they bound him, led him away and handed him over to Pilate the governor. 3 When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4 “I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.” “What is that to us?” they replied. “That’s your responsibility.”   5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself. 6 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, “It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money.” 7 So they decided to use the money to buy the potter’s field as a burial place for foreigners. 8 That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day. 9 Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: “They took the thirty pieces of silver, the price set on him by the people of Israel, 10 and they used them to buy the potter’s field, as the Lord commanded me.”



The Quran itself NEVER said (nor Muhammad ever said) it was Judas who was substituted (for Jesus) as the Quran only said ‘they killed him not, nor did they crucify him, (but) it was only made to appear so unto them’. So, any talks on how Jesus was saved from crucifixion are just talks.

'HOW’ Jesus was saved from crucifixion is not important, BUT, what is important for the people to know, is that he was saved by God from crucifixion and thus, was not killed. Similarly, in the Bible, AFTER the so-called 'resurrection', Jesus himself never mentioned he was ever crucified/killed and resurrected and so, any talks about Jesus being crucified, killed and then resurrected are just talks by people of the time (and recorded in the Bible), who perceived they saw ‘Jesus’ crucified and killed (that is, ‘only made to appear so unto them’).

So, it’s not right to say that “Muhammad have twisted everything in the Quran that he copied from the bible to suit him”. In fact, Psalm 22, when read in full, clearly supported the Quran narration of “they killed him not, nor did they crucify him, (but) it was only made to appear so unto them”.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DavidC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 August 2018 at 5:32am
Good points, Jerry. Also note Saudi Arabia crucified a dead man last week. They cut off his head, sewed it back on and crucified his dead body in Mecca. I bring this up not to criticize capital punishment or argue the point about Judas Iscariot, but to point out that ancient scripture of any faith requires careful, prayerful reading and what may seem obvious to modern readers is not always what the ancient author intended.
Christian; Wesleyan M.Div.
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