IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Interfaith Dialogue
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Jesus was crucified according to historia
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login


Jesus was crucified according to historia

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 74>
Author
Message Reverse Sort Order
ZAHRA1234 View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie
Avatar

Joined: 10 August 2017
Location: Pakistan
Status: Offline
Points: 82
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ZAHRA1234 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Jesus was crucified according to historia
    Posted: 20 December 2018 at 1:31am
nice sharing its amazing thanks 
Back to Top
standinfaith View Drop Down
Starter.
Starter.
Avatar

Joined: 26 November 2018
Location: California
Status: Offline
Points: 1
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote standinfaith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 November 2018 at 8:46am

The Quran instructs its followers to believe in the integrity of the Torah and Ingil, both of which give clear-cut evidence about the crucifixion death and subsequent resurrection of the Lord Jesus. For example:

There are seven annual ‘appointed times’ mentioned in the Torah:

1.Passover

2.Unleavened Bread

3.Firstfruits

4.Pentecost

5.Trumpets

6.Atonement

7.Tabernacles

Jesus literally fulfilled the first four of these in perfect alignment with the Hebrew calendar. Here is how he did this:

1. Jesus became our Passover lamb.  He was crucified between 9 a.m. and 3 p.m. on the day of Passover, at the same time as the symbolic Passover lamb was being slaughtered by priests in the temple.

2. Jesus led a sinless life; he is our unleavened bread.

3. Three days after the burial of Jesus, God fulfilled first fruits by resurrecting Jesus’ dead body.

4. The Holy Spirit filled 120 disciples on the day of Pentecost, fulfilling this feast.

The fulfillment of these prophetic, scriptural events is God’s proof to mankind that Jesus was crucified to death and then resurrected, just as the Bible teaches.


Back to Top
2Acts View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 22 March 2015
Status: Offline
Points: 142
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2Acts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 October 2018 at 11:04pm
Originally posted by JerryMyers JerryMyers wrote:

[QUOTE=jp the unitarian]

Despite what the Christians’ claim and their interpretation of the verses you quoted above, the KEY question is still - when and where exactly in the Bible did Jesus himself (not of other people’s words) say he will become son of God after he died and resurrected or where in the whole Bible did Jesus say he came to die for the sins of all mankind ?? None ! If I am to give an analogy to the Christians’ claim of Jesus, I will say it’s like watching a soccer match where there’s lot of fancy footwork and excitements BUT no goals scored !
Despite what the Muslims claim that Mohamad was the "comforter" the KEY question is still - when and where exactly in the Quran did Mohamad himself (not of other people’s words) say he is the "comforter" ?? None ! Sounds like an own goal to me !
Back to Top
2Acts View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 22 March 2015
Status: Offline
Points: 142
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2Acts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2018 at 11:26pm
Originally posted by JerryMyers JerryMyers wrote:

Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

The fact that Jesus was crucified is a historical FACT. There is extensive independent, non-biblical testimony that proves it.


'Jesus was crucified' is NOT a historical FACT, it is a historical OPINION passed thru the centuries till today. As you correctly said, it’s a non-biblical testimony, meaning, it’s not supported by the scripture but supported by the OPINIONS of scholars and historians.

Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

You say his resurrection is just talk by other people at the time but you forget they were eye witnesses. You were not and neither were Muslims who only came along centuries later. Also Jesus said he would be crucified when he said -

"As you know, the Passover is two days away--and the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified." Mathew 26.2


Well, Jesus in Matthew 26:2 clearly said he WILL BE HANDED OVER. That clearly tells us Jesus was fully aware that he was about to be arrested, be wrongly trial from which he then expected to be sentenced to death by crucifixion, which happened to be the capital punishment of the day. That was just an expectation or anticipation on Jesus’ part based on the situation he was in at that time. Expectation or anticipation of something to happen does not mean it will certainly happen – it’s just an expectation or anticipation.

Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

He also alluded to it before hand in comparing himself tp the Temple destruction and the sign of Jonah.


I assume you are referring to John 2:19 about the destruction of the temple and rebuilding it in 3 days. Right ??

I hope you can think with logic and rationale when reading John 2:13-22. If you read those verses and paused a while at John 2:19 where Jesus said “Destroy the temple and I will raise it again in 3 days” and ask yourself “Why would Jesus be talking about his body when the annoyed crowd was merely questioning his authority” ? The logical and rational answer would be he was not talking about his body BUT he said those words in response to the crowd’s questioning of his authority. He was using a ‘hyperbole figure of speech’ in his response to show that his authority came from the Highest Authority that is, from God Himself. Sure, John 2:21 said directly he was talking about his body and indirectly implied of his future ‘crucifixion and resurrection’ but the verses of John 2:21-22 are so out of place in the context of the crowd’s questioning Jesus’ authority that one had to wonder whether those verses in John 2:21-22 are fabricated. Mark’s version of the same event as recorded in Mark 11:27-33 is more logical to accept as Jesus’ response (to the questioning of his authority by the crowd) – it’s the kind of response you can expect from Jesus, and of course, nothing about Jesus talking about his body in Mark’s version of the same event. So, why did Mark not mention about Jesus’ body as a comparison to the destruction of the temple if that was the intention of Jesus ?? Answer is obvious – Mark recorded the true event of what happened at the temple while John added his own twist to the event.

What about the sign of Jonah ??

Firstly, let us understand what is meant by ‘a sign’. A sign is defined as a perceptible indication of something not immediately apparent (as a visible clue of something that has happened). In other words, a sign is an indirect indicator or a clue to another event or implication, in short, it cannot be a direct indicator such as “3 days and 3 night’.

In the context of religious scriptures, a sign is normally given to authenticate God’s Words or to confirm and convince the people of the claims of His prophets. In the case of the sign of Jonah, these Pharisees and teachers are asking Jesus to show a sign that he was truly the Messiah when they have already seen many miracles performed by Jesus which would have convinced many people as signs that he is indeed the Messiah and a prophet of God. So, instead of asking God for another sign to convince these people, Jesus instead decided to tell them to look at the sign of Jonah, which would be their final chance to believe - “But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

As a sign is not a direct pointer, the sign of Jonah cannot be about the 3 days and 3 nights that Jesus was said to be in the tomb. While, there’s no questions about Jonah being ‘in the belly of the fish’, there’s questions of Jesus being ‘in the belly of the earth’ as he was never truly buried. According to the Bible, he was placed in a tomb which hardly can be described as ‘in the belly or heart of the earth’. So, it’s quite amusing to see people tripping over each other trying to explain the ‘math logic’ of the ‘3 day and 3 nights’ puzzle when the ‘sign of Jonah’ had nothing to do at all with the 3 days and 3 nights that Jesus was said to have spent in the tomb. Moreover, we cannot be certain for sure ‘Jesus’ was in the tomb for 3 days and 3 nights. We cannot simply assume and say when Mary Magdalene came early Sunday morning and found the tomb empty, therefore, ‘Jesus’ must have just left the tomb minutes before Mary Magdalene came. ‘Jesus’ could have left the tomb on Saturday or maybe Friday or he could very well have left the tomb on Thursday night itself, just hours after he was placed in the tomb and nobody knew he was no longer in the tomb until Sunday morning when Mary Magdalene came and found the tomb empty.

So, what is the sign of Jonah if it’s not about the ‘3 days and 3 nights’ Jesus was said to be in the tomb ??

To answer that, we need to understand what happened to Jonah and Jesus. Jonah was thrown into the rough sea and he was swallowed by a big fish and he was not seen alive for 3 days and 3 nights. Do the people expect him to survive the rough sea and after being swallowed by the big fish ?? Answer is obviously ‘NO’. BUT after 3 days and 3 nights, the big fish vomited Jonah out from its belly onto the beach. Was he killed ?? Again, no, in fact, not only was he not killed, he was not even injured but very much alive. Now, let’s look at what happened to Jesus. Jesus was said to be crucified and killed on Thursday evening/night and thus he was last seen alive on Thursday too that is, before he was said to be crucified and was not seen too (after he was said to be placed in the tomb) until Sunday which Christians said the duration of which was 3 days and 3 nights. When Jesus reappeared to Magdalene, was Jesus alive ?? The answer is YES, and not only was Jesus alive, he was also unharmed - there’s not a single verse in the Bible in which Jesus said he was injured (due to the crucifixion) AFTER the so-called ‘resurrection’.

Thus, the sign of Jonah is really about the fact that both men are thought to be killed, not seen alive for 3 days and 3 nights, but, in reality, they are both very much alive throughout ‘the 3 days and 3 nights’. Both Jonah and Jesus have total faith in God and in their predicaments, had prayed to God Almighty to be saved and God heard and answered their prayers.

Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

And so what if Jesus never said he had been crucified/killed and resurrected. He didn’t need to because he demonstrated it.


Jesus never demonstrated his crucifixion or resurrection - only people misinterpreted his words and thus, think so.

Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

You are wrong about Psalm 22. It reads -
Dogs surround me, a pack of villains encircles me; they pierce my hands and my feet. All my bones are on display; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my clothes among them and cast lots for my garment.


Well, I have already responded to ‘Peace maker’ on Psalm 22, so you can check that in my response to him earlier.

Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

This lines up with the Gospel account and not the Quran.


On the contrary – Psalm 22, in context, lined up perfectly with the Quran’s claim that Jesus “was not killed nor was he crucified but it was made to appear so unto them”. As told to ‘Peace maker’, you need to read Psalm 22 in its totality, NOT just up to verse 18 and ignore verse 19 onwards.
You are wrong. The crucifixion IS historical FACT. Historical facts are indisputable and can be verified and are based on primary sources which consist of documents, objects, and other physical pieces of historical evidence that were created contemporary to the time being examined.

The crucifixion is supported in the scripture in the four Gospels / Injjel and in non Christian primary sources contemporary with the time. We have primary evidence from Tacitus, Pliny the Younger, Josephus, Lucian and the Babylonian Talmud.

You haven’t even addressed the point that it was not “just talk by other people at the time” but actually eye witnesses. You were not an eye witness and neither were Muslims who only came along centuries later.

Your claim in Jesus only anticipating his crucifixion, is not valid. Jesus said the Son of Man will be handed over to be crucified means he will be crucified. He did not say …  “ I expect or anticipate I will be crucified”.

So you admit in John 2.21 Jesus was talking about his body and indirectly implied his future crucifixion and resurrection . Good. But then you wonder whether those verses in John 2:21-22 are fabricated ! Interesting, So you can’t refute the scriptural evidence so now you have to resort to the old “fabricated” argument out of desperation. You do realise your Quran states the Injeel / Gospels are truth. Surah 5:46 for example ?

What you don’t seem to realise however is that John wrote his Gospel in the life time of all first generation believers. The enemies of the Christians (of which there were many at that time) would have been quick to seize upon and document any “fabrications” as you claim.

You are wrong (again) about Mark 11.27 -33 being the same event as recorded in John 2.21. You actually need to be cross referencing to Mark 13.

You state a sign is not a “direct indicator”, maybe ?, maybe not ? But in this case you got it wrong. Jesus himself gave the direct indicator of 3 days and 3 nights in Mathew 12.40. your definition of a “direct indicator” is not valid.

You state there’s questions of Jesus being ‘in the belly of the earth’ as he was never  buried but  placed in a tomb which cannot be described as ‘in the belly or heart of the earth’. Let me explain it to you.  Jesus compared his death to Jonah, who was in the belly of the fish for three days and three nights (Matt 12:40). Jonah had related his ordeal not only in terms of having been swallowed by the great fish but also as having been "at the roots of the mountains" (Jonah 2:6); that is, Jonah stated that "the earth with its bars was around" him in the confines of Sheol (Jonah 2:6), because he was physically dead in the belly of the great fish. That is, Jonah was not in the ground (the grave), but his body was under water and his soul was in the heart of the earth (and thus in Sheol). Jesus too was in Hades /  Sheol  which is the lower parts of the earth. As believed in the ancient world. In other words, like Jonah, Jesus was in the belly of the earth (Sheol) for three days and three nights. The comparison to Jonah avoids ambiguity with the ground, because the body of Jonah was not buried in the ground when he entered Sheol, ; thus the account of Jonah enables us to understand that Sheol includes some location "in the heart of the earth" as Jesus said (or to use Jonah's words, "at the roots of the mountains"). Thus Jesus entered the same place as Jonah (Sheol/Hades) for three days and three nights

Regarding the 3 days and 3 nights the Thursday in the account was the Day of Preparation, and therefore the Passover (which starts the First Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread and is considered an automatic Sabbath day) had began at sunset on Thursday and continued until Friday evening, when the "normal" Sabbath had begun. Thus the Passover (First Day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread) combined with the "normal" Sabbath created a 48-hour Sabbath, since the Passover on this particular year had occurred on the very day just before the "normal" Sabbath.

In other words, the body of Jesus lay in the grave for three days and three nights while at the same time his soul remained in Sheol/Hades for three days and three nights.

There is conclusive proof in the Bible that when Jesus told the Jews he would be three days and three nights in the earth, they took this to mean that the fulfillment of the prophecy could be expected after only two nights. On the day after his crucifixion, that is, after only one night, they went to Pilate and said -

Sir, we remember how that impostor said, while he was still alive, 'After three days I will rise again'. Therefore order the sepulchre to be made secure until the third day. Matthew 27.63-64.


You are wrong about there not being a single verse in the Bible in which Jesus said he was injured due to the crucifixion after the resurrection. Read John 20:24-29 when Jesus appeared to Thomas. For someone as yourself who claims to know the Bible you should know this !

You are wrong that the Sign of Jonah is about the fact that both Jonah and Jesus are thought to be killed but, in reality, they are both very much alive throughout ‘the 3 days and 3 nights’. You need to acquaint yourself with the story of Jonah and Gods theme behind it. Its about repentance.  Jesus confirmed that Nineveh's repentance came about as a result of their full knowledge of Jonah's ordeal of the preceding days. He made this quite plain when he said:" Jonah became a sign to the men of Nineveh". Luke 11.30

Thus the great event was the total repentance of the whole city, from its king to all its slaves, when they heard the ominous warning. Nothing about pretending to die and reappearing

The Gospels are clear. They clearly record that Jesus was crucified and rose again. He demonstrated it. The disciple Thomas was just like you and Jesus himself had to prove it to him by showing him his wounds.  He demonstrated it to Thomas. 

As I said you’ve got Psalm 22 wrong. As Peace maker stated, the historical testimony agrees in broad-brush strokes with the gospels that Jesus was indeed crucified.  Read his post properly. Also you failed to answer his question – just “Whose hands and feet are pierced in Psalm 22 ?

And in regards to your claim that Psalm 22:19 on wards is a prophesy God will rescue and save Jesus it is basically a prayer of hope, nothing more. There is nothing specifically about being rescued from the piercing of hands and feet that had earlier occurred. If anything it is about the resurrection. Psalm 22 goes on to say -

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied; they who seek the LORD will praise him— may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go down to the dust will kneel before him— those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn— for he has done it.

The psalmist is now addressing the impact of that person’s death on ‘posterity’ and ‘future generations’ (v.30). That is us living 2000 years later.  He tells us that  ‘posterity’ which follows this ‘pierced’ man who died such a horrible death will ‘serve’ him and be ‘told about him’.  Verse 27 predicts the geographic scope of the impact – it will go to the ‘ends of the earth’ and among ‘all families of nations’ and cause them to ‘turn to the LORD’. Verse 29 indicates how ‘those who cannot keep themselves alive’ (since we all die would that not be all of us?) will one day kneel before him. The righteousness of this man will be proclaimed to people who were not yet alive (the ‘yet unborn’) at the time of his death.

Obviously this is about the salvation of the world resulting from the crucifixion and resurrection. It is obviously not about David. Just as the piercing of the hands and feet was not about David.

Gods supposed rescue of Jesus from the crucifixion in Psalm 20:6 is not clear as you state.  What makes you think it is Messianic? What makes you think this is not about David being victorious? And if it is Messianic what makes you think it’s not about the victory of Christ through the resurrection?  

Back to Top
2Acts View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 22 March 2015
Status: Offline
Points: 142
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2Acts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 September 2018 at 3:26pm
Originally posted by JerryMyers JerryMyers wrote:

[QUOTE

Actually, the accounts of the historians DO NOT fully agree with the words of Jesus or Psalm 22, although, they agreed with the accounts of scholars up to the point of the trial when Jesus was given the death sentence. However, I am sure you will agree, agreeing with Jesus and Psalm 22 is far more important than agreeing with scholars and histo-rians.

Try reading Psalm 22 beyond verse 18. Psalm 22:1-18 basically prophesized what ‘was made to appear so unto them’. Psalm 22:19 onwards prophesized God will rescue and save Jesus. It’s also clearly mentioned in Psalm 20:6, God will save His anointed one – “Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; He will hear him from His holy heaven with the saving strength of His right hand” - KJV.

You are wrong. As Peace maker stated, the historical testimony agrees in broad-brush strokes with the gospels that Jesus was indeed crucified.  Read his post properly. Also you failed to answer his question – just “Whose hands and feet are pierced in Psalm 22 ?

And in regards to your claim that Psalm 22:19 onwards is a prophesy God will rescue and save Jesus it is basically a prayer of hope, nothing more. There is nothing specifically about being rescued from the piercing of hands and feet that had earlier occurred. If anything it is about the resurrection. Also Psalm 22 goes on to say -

26 The poor will eat and be satisfied; they who seek the LORD will praise him— may your hearts live forever!

27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him,

28 for dominion belongs to the LORD and he rules over the nations.

29 All the rich of the earth will feast and worship; all who go down to the dust will kneel before him— those who cannot keep themselves alive.

30 Posterity will serve him; future generations will be told about the Lord.

31 They will proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn— for he has done it.

The psalmist is now addressing the impact of that person’s death on ‘posterity’ and ‘future generations’ (v.30). That is us living 2000 years later.  He tells us that  ‘posterity’ which follows this ‘pierced’ man who died such a horrible death will ‘serve’ him and be ‘told about him’.  Verse 27 predicts the geographic scope of the impact – it will go to the ‘ends of the earth’ and among ‘all families of nations’ and cause them to ‘turn to the LORD’. Verse 29 indicates how ‘those who cannot keep themselves alive’ (since we all die would that not be all of us?) will one day kneel before him. The righteousness of this man will be proclaimed to people who were not yet alive (the ‘yet unborn’) at the time of his death.

Obviously this is about the salvation of the world resulting from the crucifixion and resurrection. It is obviously not about David. Just as the piercing of the hands and feet was not about David.

Gods supposed rescue of Jesus from the crucifixion in Psalm 20:6 is not clear as you state.  What makes you think it is Messianic? What makes you think this is not about David being victorious? And if it is Messianic what makes you think it’s not about the victory of Christ through the resurrection?  

Back to Top
abrahamic_seeker View Drop Down
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 18 September 2018
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 10
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abrahamic_seeker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 September 2018 at 11:32pm
Look. Historical analysis is what has concluded that Jesus most probably did die on the cross. This doesn't mean that we have found scientific or acctual evidence that he died, more like the reports are so trustworthy that one can conclude that he most probably died. The most accepted view is that it was made so to appear to them in the sence that he wasn't put on the cross put people thought he was. This is completely compatible with history since the only thing we can find evidence for is that people really thought he did die, and after that we are making an assumption that he did die. I dont know why people care so much. The important thing is that they didn't kill him and that they didn't crucifie him. If that means that he did not die or that it was God who allowed them to kill him, as Jesus states in the gospels, doesn't really matter. 
Back to Top
JerryMyers View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 21 September 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 65
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JerryMyers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2018 at 11:43pm
Originally posted by jp the unitarian jp the unitarian wrote:

Personally I think there is a tremendous misread of the quran on this part, it is very interesting since Muhammad wrote in verse 158 that Yehovah raised him up to himself and in 159 that none of the people of the book must believe in him before his death, clearly his death and resurrection are stated in these and also in Mary 16 verses 30-34
30. He said: "I am indeed a servant of Allah. He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet;
31. "And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath en-joined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live;
32. "(He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable;
33"So peace is on me the day I WAS BORN, the day THAT I DIE, and the day that I SHALL BE RAISED UP TO LIFE (AGAIN)"!
34 Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (IT IS) A STATEMENT OF TRUTH, about which they (vainly) dispute.
Now Muhammad says in this part that, Yeshua clearly says that peace is upon him the day that he was born, the day he dies and the day he will BE RAISED UP TO LIFE AGAIN. Evidently Yeshua said these before his death, but he clearly states that he will be raised up to life again, which in the Bible is a clear reference to his resurrection and this is also stated in al nisa


First, Muhammad never wrote the Quran and any logical and rational man will know Muhammad could not have written the Quran. Why ? It was not only because of the message the Quran was conveying, but because of its poetic literary characteristics and styles. You need to be proficient in the language of the Arabic Quran to fully appreciate and understand what I am trying to tell you. A small example would be the presence of palindrome sentences in the Quran. A palindrome, of course, is something that could be read from the left or the right and still carry the same meaning, for example, racecar or Bob. To make a palindrome out of a short word may be easy. To make a palindrome out of a longer word is hard, but to make a palindrome out of a sentence, that is extremely difficult, and you would need a long and editorial process to succeed here. And even if you succeeded in this you would still have to think of the context of the passage that you are putting the sentence into. Muhammad, being an illiterate, could not have come out with any palindrome sentence, let alone, to place that sentence into a passage without disturbing the context of that passage.

Second, when Jesus said "So peace is on me the day I WAS BORN, the day THAT I DIE, and the day that I SHALL BE RAISED UP TO LIFE (AGAIN)", he was not talking about his ‘resurrection’ on earth as most Christians believe, he was referring to the Day of Resurrection when everyone (including himself) will be raised or in other words, every true believer believes in these 3 notable days of their life – the day they were born, the day they will die and the day they will be raised again. Every Muslims knew this and obviously, so did Jesus. So, where is your evidence that Jesus said these words just before his so-called ‘death’??


Originally posted by jp the unitarian jp the unitarian wrote:

158. Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;- .

But what is really clear here is that Muhammad also believes in his death and resurrection as he himself says "it is a statement of truth about which they vainly dispute". so is Muhammad contradicting himself?


What is really clear here is that Jesus was not killed nor was he crucified but Allah raised him up to Himself just before the crucifixion.

Originally posted by jp the unitarian jp the unitarian wrote:

Well let's look at Al Nisa (the women verse 157 again

157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him,(663) but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

Now it is certain that the Jews did not kill Yeshua nor did they crucify him, it was the ROMANS who did this. So in effect the Jews did not kill him this was done by the ROMANS, but that he did not die on the cross is undone by what is written in Maryam v 3-34 which clearly is a reference to his death and resurrection. It is clear that even Muham-mad recognized Yeshua as the one who gave us the Gospel, and this gospel is the word of the messiah, which is Yeshua. Muhammad's whole contention is about the trinity as he clearly states in Al Nisa' v171 and also in Al Ma'idah v72-73.


Come on, get real !! Fact is - the Jews plotted to kill Jesus (John 11:45-47) and the Romans, being the Law of the day, carried out the trial and execution. In other words, they (the Jews and Romans) are accountable for the death of 'Jesus' or the man they believed was Jesus.

Quran Surah Maryam 30-34 had nothing to do with the trial, the plot and the execution of ‘Jesus’, it’s about Jesus declaring who he was and that is, he is a prophet of God and indeed a servant of Allah who has made him blessed by making him kind to his mother and not overbearing or miserable, and he will be at peace the day he was born, the day that he die and the day he will be raised up again. Such was the man, Jesus, who spoke the truth but many (like the Christians today) vainly dispute his words. In saying he will be at peace the day he was born, the day that he die and the day he will be raised up again simply mean Jesus believe in life, death and the last day – the Day of Resurrection and these are beyond the knowledge of man, that is, no one knew or can decide when he will be born, when he will die and when will be the Day of Resurrection.

Originally posted by jp the unitarian jp the unitarian wrote:

171. O People of the Book! Commit no ex-cesses(675) inyour religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. SAY NOT "TRINITY" : desist:(676) it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah. Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.

So it is clear that all his words have to be in accordance with the gos-pel of Christ, which is clearly all about his death and resurrection, which Muhammad believes and since his resurrection is our guaran-tee of the salvation Yehovah has granted us, it would be wise to see Muhammad's words in this perspective.


It is clear that Jesus is just a messenger of Allah and he was created by Allah’s Word just as when He created light with His Word when He willed the creation (of light) by saying, “Let there BE light” and there was light. Jesus had never preached trinity and thus, it’s better for everyone to stop saying that he’s part of a triune God. If the gospel of Christ is saying the same thing, then, yes, the Quran is in accordance to the gospel of Christ.

And how was the gospel of Jesus all about his ‘death and resurrection’ ??? And since when Muhammad believe in Jesus’ ‘death and resurrection’ as understood by the Christians ?? See my explanation earlier on the Quran verses you quoted above.

Originally posted by jp the unitarian jp the unitarian wrote:

Acts 13:32 “And we bring you the Good News, the promise made to the fathers, (TS98)

Acts 13:33 that Elohim has filled this for us, their children, having raised up יהושע, as it has also been written in the second Psalm, ‘You are My Son, today I have brought You forth.’ (TS98)

1Pet 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in the sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and FOR SPRINKLING WITH HIS BLOOD: May grace and peace be multiplied to you. (ESV2011)

1Pet 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! Ac-cording to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a liv-ing hope THROUGH THE RESURRECTION OF JESUS CHRIST FROM THE DEAD, (ESV2011)

1Pet 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfad-ing, kept in heaven for you, (ESV2011)

It is clear that Muhammad refusing to accept Yeshua as the son of God by birth or because of some preexistence is a clear denial of the trinity, in this I agree with him Yeshua was not preexistent and did not truly become the son of God until his resurrection, but it has to be not-ed that we are Allah's children. That Yeshua became the son of God by his resurrection from the dead is made clear by acts 13:33

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, (ESV2011)
John 1:13 who were BORN, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD. (ESV2011)

and that we will be also children of God by our resurrection is made clear by John 1:13, where it says we will be Born of God. The resur-rection is when Yehovah raised Yeshua up to himself. This is the whole point of the Gospel, the good news of Messiah, is that we will be raised up to everlasting life because of him, because of his death and resurrection.

Acts 17:31 because He has set a day on which He is going to judge the world in righteousness by a Man whom He has appoint-ed, having given proof of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” (TS98)

159. And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a wit-ness against them;-

When we look at al nisa v 159 we see a perfect match with acts 17:31 which shows that Allah (Yehovah) will judge the world with Yeshua as his witness.


Despite what the Christians’ claim and their interpretation of the verses you quoted above, the KEY question is still - when and where exactly in the Bible did Jesus himself (not of other people’s words) say he will become son of God after he died and resurrected or where in the whole Bible did Jesus say he came to die for the sins of all mankind ?? None ! If I am to give an analogy to the Christians’ claim of Jesus, I will say it’s like watching a soccer match where there’s lot of fancy footwork and excitements BUT no goals scored !
Back to Top
JerryMyers View Drop Down
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 21 September 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 65
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JerryMyers Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 September 2018 at 11:10pm
Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

Jesus was clear when he said I AM The Resurrection and the Life. Cross reference to John 6:40, John 8.58 and Exodus 3.14. The "I am" reference in John's Gospel offer a clear look at Christ's identity.


If 'I AM' means 'God', then Jesus is actually saying "God The Resurrection" !!

Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I WILL raise them up at the last day.” John 6.40.


Yes, clearly Jesus said that because he was THE prophet of that time. Thus, naturally, those who listen and believe in him will be shown the way to eternal life and on the last day, God will raise them up (that is, elevate their status) above those who do not listen and believe in him. Likewise, Moses was THE prophet of his time. Thus, those who listen and believe in him will be shown the way to eternal life too and on the last day, God will elevate their status above those who do not listen and believe in their prophet.

Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

In John 8:58, he answered the religious leaders, saying, "Truly, Truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." This was a clear reference to Exodus 3:14, where God revealed His name to Moses as "I AM."
The religious leaders wanted to kill Him was because Jesus claimed to be The Son of God in such sayings. Obviously more than just “ God and him being simply attuned to each other but rather Oneness in substance.


Well, try reading Exodus 3:14 in context and tell me how John 8:58 can be a reference to it. If the connection is just because Jesus said “I am”, then, many people would also be God as I am (oops, did I just say "I am"??) sure everyone would have said “I am” many, many times in their lives.

Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

You are kind of correct in saying Jesus, must be praying to God to make all his disciples/believers Gods too. Christians by partaking in the resurrection actually achieve an aspect of the divine within.


Well, that’s what Christians believe BUT, is that what Jesus meant - that he's God or equal to God and that he died and rose again ?? I know Paul said you MUST believe Jesus died and rose again else your faith will be in vain BUT where in the whole Bible did Jesus say or imply the same ?? No where.

Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

You ask how can Jesus and God be one and same when Jesus kept reminding the people that it was God Almighty who had sent him. This was long discussed and resolved centuries before Islam. You need to read about the Hypo static Union.


Hypostatic union, trinity, original sin, double nature of Jesus and what have you, well, there are all man-made doctrines or concepts. Why ? Because Jesus NEVER preached such concepts or doctrines.

Originally posted by 2Acts 2Acts wrote:

You are not correct in your interpretation of John 14 and Philip. Philip was not sceptical as you claim. But he was con-fused. And read further where Jesus said- “Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me”. Obviously more than just a representative of God Almighty. But actually One with Him.


Philip was confused ?? Not really. Read again John 14 in context to really understand. Philip was skeptical of Jesus’ claim that he was the way, the truth and the life as in saying so, Jesus was claiming absolute monopoly of access to God. Because of his skepticism on Jesus' claim, Philip requested Jesus to show God. This, of course, disappointed Jesus as he has been among them for so long and yet they still want to see God when they have seen God’s miracles thru him or to put it figuratively, seeing him will be the same as seeing (the presence of) God.

To understand “Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me”, you must read at least, a verse earlier – “Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.” – John 14:10-11

Firstly, you should note that Jesus said “The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority” means Jesus on his own, has no authority or knowledge over what to preach or teach, other than what God had told him.

Secondly, Jesus said “Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing His work” means the miracles, the work that Jesus did was not of his own initiatives or that he has divine power to perform miracles, BUT it was God’s work and miracles performed THROUGH Jesus. It’s the same when Moses was said to split the Red Sea, it’s was not because Moses has divine super-power, but, it was God who split the sea THROUGH Moses.

The phrase 'living in me' does not literally mean God was living in Jesus, but it means the Spirit of God is with Jesus and guiding him in his works. Anyone who have complete faith in God and abide by His Rules are said to have the Spirit of God with them. So, when you understand the relationship between God and His prophets, then, you will understand that Jesus’ words “I am in the Father and the Father is in me” simply means Jesus have complete faith in God and God responded in return by having complete trust in Jesus and in the case of Jesus and Moses, that trust was translated by God performing His miracles and work THROUGH them. When you have complete faith in God, then, you are also said to be one with God.

Likewise, when Jesus prayed for all his believers - “that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me” – John 17:21. In other words, Jesus prayed to God for all his believers that they may have complete faith in God (may be one) just as he has complete faith in God (and I am in you). Jesus also prayed for all his believers to have faith in him and God (May they also be in us) so that the whole world may believe that God have sent him. So, tell me, how can Jesus be actually ONE with God (as of the same nature, substance) when he had to pray (to God) for all his believers to have faith in him and God, so that they all can believe that he was sent by God ?? Why would Jesus had to pray for all his believers ?? The obvious answer would be because Jesus knew a growing number among his believers/followers are worshiping him as God and he prayed to God for them to have total faith in God so that they will believe that he’s not God but he was sent by God.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 74>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.