IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Interfaith Dialogue
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Seems like a false statement.  Please explain.  What is Islam What is Islam  Donate Donate
  FAQ FAQ  Quran Search Quran Search  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Seems like a false statement. Please explain.

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 91011
Author
Message
Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member

Female
Joined: 29 March 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1930
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2008 at 1:35am

IS:

First, what is written in The Quran will always hold prominence over the Ahadith. You can look at the Ahadith in light of The Quran, but if something in the Ahadith is not in line with The Quran then you should follow The Quran.
 
The fact that Allah knows what will happen before it happens is not the same as Allah deciding what will happen.
Knowing the future is not the same as creating the future.
You may think that because Allah knows what you are going to do it will cause you to do it, but rather your actions are not caused by Allah's knowledge but Allah's knowledge is of your choices. He did not make these choices for you, nor did He cause you to make them.   

Allah has clearly stated in The Quran that man will be judged according to what choices he makes. If you read the context and Ayats of the verses you yourself posted you will see that even these support this. 

"every soul will have what it has earned and it will be held responsible only for its own doing." Al Baqarah 2:286 
 
This is an excellent excerpt:
 
"But there is no need to go to such extremes, since it is not difficult to reconcile Divine qadar (predestination) and human responsibility. Allah decided to create man as a free agent, but He knows (and how can He not know!) before creating every man how he is going to use his free will; what, for instance, his reaction would be when a Prophet clarifies Allah�s message to him. This foreknowledge and its registering in a �Book� is called qadar.

�But if we are free to use our will� a Qadari might say, �we may use it in ways that contradict Allah�s will, and in that case we would not be right in claiming that everything is willed or decreed by Allah.�

The Qur�an answers this question by reminding us that it was Allah who willed that we shall be of free will, and it is He who allows us to use our will. Allah, Most High, says, �Lo! This is an Admonishment, that whosoever will may choose a way unto his Lord. Yet ye will not, unless Allah willeth. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.� (Al-Insan: 29-30)

�If so,� a Qadari might say, �He could have prevented us from doing evil."

Yes indeed He could. Allah says, �Had Allah willed, He would have brought them all together to the guidance; if thy Lord had willed whoever is in the earth would have believed, all of them, all together.� (Yunus: 99) �Had Allah willed, they were not idolaters; and We have not appointed thee a watcher over them neither art thou their guardian.� (Al-An`am: 107)

But Allah has willed that men shall be free especially in regard to matters of belief and disbelief. Allah Almighty says, �Say: The truth is from your Lord; so let whosoever will believe, and let whosoever will disbelieve.� (Al-Kahf: 29)

But men would not be so free if whenever any of them wills to do evil Allah prevents him from doing it and compels him to do good.

�If our actions are willed by Allah,� someone might say, �then they are in fact His actions.�

This objection is based on a confusion that Allah wills what we will in the sense of granting us the will to choose and enabling us to execute that will, i.e., He creates all that makes it possible for us to do it. He does not will it in the sense of doing it, otherwise it would be quite in order to say, when we drink or eat or sleep for instance that Allah performed these actions. Allah creates them, He does not do or perform them." (Based on Dr. Ja`far Sheikh Idris�s article �Belief in Qadar�. (Source: http://isgkc.org/pillars_qadar.htm).
 
Since Allah has stated that every soul will be held responsible for its own doing then you must either believe that or believe:
 
1. Allah is not being truthful when He states that man will be judged according to what his own hand has wrought
 
2. That Allah is not Just and Merciful because He is rewarding and punishing people for something that they had no control over   


Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 09 May 2008 at 1:59am
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
Back to Top
Saladin View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Male
Joined: 04 September 2007
Location: Sri Lanka
Status: Offline
Points: 575
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Saladin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2008 at 2:44am
Israfil,
 
I'm curious. You say that homosexuality is innate and natural and still manage to believe in a God who destroyed a nation for that very reason. What does that mean? Was God wrong about Sodom? Had I that doubt, that's good reason for me to not believe in that God.
 
I can add one more to your example of the prevalence of homosexuality in the animal kingdom (or so as you say). Male chimps stimulating each other sexually, due to the absence  of female chimps, as I read in some Wildlife site. We also find some chimps engaging in cannibalism. If we are to take points from that, perhaps Dahmer wasnt as sick as we thought he was, huh?
 
 
 
'Trust everyone but not the devil in them'
Back to Top
Israfil View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Joined: 08 September 2003
Status: Offline
Points: 3984
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2008 at 11:39am
The fact that Allah knows what will happen before it happens is not the same as Allah deciding what will happen.
 
I believ I made that distinction already. I made it clear in several posts back that although God is not personally directing my actions.
 
You may think that because Allah knows what you are going to do it will cause you to do it, but rather your actions are not caused by Allah's knowledge but Allah's knowledge is of your choices. He did not make these choices for you, nor did He cause you to make them.   
 
Agreed. The problem (as I've already explained in several posts back) here is God is the ultimate causality of things although he is not direct in individual actions he is the cause of all actions. I believe we all can agree on this. We can also agree on the belief that prior to all the universe's inhabitants existence (notice I'm including any other life forms that we are not aware of) he knew what the universe was and how it is and what will transpire in both the particulars and the general.
 
With that said, since his knowledge is broad because prior to our existence there was our what we in philosophy call our potentiality (means the area in which we are coming into existence) he knew what we we are and what we will do in the future. As I mentioned although we at a specific time didn' exist yet God knew what we would become in the future and our spiritual destination would be. This is the problem I have.
 
God already knows my destiny before I know. I cannot change my destiny because all the actions that I perform only fulfill what God knows. Although I may act "freely" I am not acting free because God's knowledge precedes my action. I understand S.A. it is hard for you to understand but this makes perfect sense. God doesn't need to act or violate my freewill in order for me to be limited. The fact that (1) God is the first cause and (2) God has knowledge of past, present and future, makes this problematic.
 
Because God is (1) it is impossible to say that which caused is independent of God since all causes are caused by (1) mover that which is God. What this means is although God may remain inactive independently from us, his will through us causes us to act. This will is our ability to act. God has given us the will to act independently. For instance if I create a computer program to only calculate multiplication in less than .1 seconds that is what it will do until I design another ability within it. Although me being a human I cannot complete certain multiplications in less than .1 this computer has that ability, but because the computer can do this ability faster than I it doesn't necessarily mean that I can calculate this fast. Of course this is somewhat comparable to the discussion I cannot make the computer designer analagous to God/human action. But from this example you should get my point.
 
 
Since Allah has stated that every soul will be held responsible for its own doing then you must either believe that or believe:
 
1. Allah is not being truthful when He states that man will be judged according to what his own hand has wrought
 
2. That Allah is not Just and Merciful because He is rewarding and punishing people for something that they had no control over  
 
Shausta you are making this too easy.....
 
If I were a god, and couldn't be held accountable to my own laws (because I'm infinite and the first cause of all things) I could easily manipulate laws in which inhabitants whom I've created and designed would only be held accountable to those laws. The greatest thing about God is he doesn't have to be held accountable to laws which he has designed (not saying I believe this to the extreme but this is a critique to the questions you posted) so even if he has created the will in us to act even to do good things he cannot be held accountable for the laws which he designed specifically for humans.
 
What I believe is God has given us a limited amount of space to act (this is not freedom of course) and although our moral conscience and our religious duties is what gets us closer to God I believe that what we do in this life is already determined apriori. I realize on the Day of Judgement I cannot say "well God, you did know I was gonna cheat with 100 prostitutes and kill 100 people" of course I am held accountable because at some point I am conscious of my actions. But even with this in mind this raises anothe rproblem. If God knew I'd kill 100 people why would he cause me to exist in the first place?
 
As you can see the discussion on predestination and freewill takes several turns not just in the problem of freedom but morality and ethics as well.
 
Israfil,
 
I'm curious. You say that homosexuality is innate and natural and still manage to believe in a God who destroyed a nation for that very reason. What does that mean? Was God wrong about Sodom? Had I that doubt, that's good reason for me to not believe in that God.
 
I am at a point where these questions which has no relevance to the thread should not even be said much less addressed by me. What does you question (Saladin) have to do with our discussion? What does that mean? Well. I don't know God wiped out people for specifically for their sexual orientation? I particularly don't believe he destroyed an entire race of people simply because they are gay I'm sure there was more to it than that. The people in Lot's time could have done some really bad things I don't know. But I believe God is just wiping a whole people out simply because of their sexual orientation is an unbelievable act. If I truly felt this way then I would cease to believe in any Abrahamic deity.
 
 I can add one more to your example of the prevalence of homosexuality in the animal kingdom (or so as you say). Male chimps stimulating each other sexually, due to the absence  of female chimps, as I read in some Wildlife site. We also find some chimps engaging in cannibalism. If we are to take points from that, perhaps Dahmer wasnt as sick as we thought he was, huh?
 
Humans are a sick species. We kill, torture and murder people just for pleasure! That is scary. And yes in some sectors of the world humans eat other humans too. This is why we are not different from other creatures especially chimps since as biologist have mapped out over 90% of our genes are linked to chimps. As far as Jeffrey Dahmer he was just  sick psychologically because he was a psychopath. It is weird even for some murders to eat their victim. Of course this is off topic.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member

Female
Joined: 29 March 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 1930
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2008 at 6:15pm
Originally posted by Israfil Israfil wrote:

The fact that Allah knows what will happen before it happens is not the same as Allah deciding what will happen.
 
I believ I made that distinction already. I made it clear in several posts back that although God is not personally directing my actions.
 
You may think that because Allah knows what you are going to do it will cause you to do it, but rather your actions are not caused by Allah's knowledge but Allah's knowledge is of your choices. He did not make these choices for you, nor did He cause you to make them.   
 
Agreed. The problem (as I've already explained in several posts back) here is God is the ultimate causality of things although he is not direct in individual actions he is the cause of all actions. I believe we all can agree on this. We can also agree on the belief that prior to all the universe's inhabitants existence (notice I'm including any other life forms that we are not aware of) he knew what the universe was and how it is and what will transpire in both the particulars and the general.
 
With that said, since his knowledge is broad because prior to our existence there was our what we in philosophy call our potentiality (means the area in which we are coming into existence) he knew what we we are and what we will do in the future. As I mentioned although we at a specific time didn' exist yet God knew what we would become in the future and our spiritual destination would be. This is the problem I have.
 
God already knows my destiny before I know. I cannot change my destiny because all the actions that I perform only fulfill what God knows. Although I may act "freely" I am not acting free because God's knowledge precedes my action. I understand S.A. it is hard for you to understand but this makes perfect sense. God doesn't need to act or violate my freewill in order for me to be limited. The fact that (1) God is the first cause and (2) God has knowledge of past, present and future, makes this problematic.
 
Because God is (1) it is impossible to say that which caused is independent of God since all causes are caused by (1) mover that which is God. What this means is although God may remain inactive independently from us, his will through us causes us to act. This will is our ability to act. God has given us the will to act independently. For instance if I create a computer program to only calculate multiplication in less than .1 seconds that is what it will do until I design another ability within it. Although me being a human I cannot complete certain multiplications in less than .1 this computer has that ability, but because the computer can do this ability faster than I it doesn't necessarily mean that I can calculate this fast. Of course this is somewhat comparable to the discussion I cannot make the computer designer analagous to God/human action. But from this example you should get my point.
 
 
Since Allah has stated that every soul will be held responsible for its own doing then you must either believe that or believe:
 
1. Allah is not being truthful when He states that man will be judged according to what his own hand has wrought
 
2. That Allah is not Just and Merciful because He is rewarding and punishing people for something that they had no control over  
 
Shausta you are making this too easy.....
 
If I were a god, and couldn't be held accountable to my own laws (because I'm infinite and the first cause of all things) I could easily manipulate laws in which inhabitants whom I've created and designed would only be held accountable to those laws. The greatest thing about God is he doesn't have to be held accountable to laws which he has designed (not saying I believe this to the extreme but this is a critique to the questions you posted) so even if he has created the will in us to act even to do good things he cannot be held accountable for the laws which he designed specifically for humans.
 
What I believe is God has given us a limited amount of space to act (this is not freedom of course) and although our moral conscience and our religious duties is what gets us closer to God I believe that what we do in this life is already determined apriori. I realize on the Day of Judgement I cannot say "well God, you did know I was gonna cheat with 100 prostitutes and kill 100 people" of course I am held accountable because at some point I am conscious of my actions. But even with this in mind this raises anothe rproblem. If God knew I'd kill 100 people why would he cause me to exist in the first place?
 
As you can see the discussion on predestination and freewill takes several turns not just in the problem of freedom but morality and ethics as well.
 
Israfil,
 
I'm curious. You say that homosexuality is innate and natural and still manage to believe in a God who destroyed a nation for that very reason. What does that mean? Was God wrong about Sodom? Had I that doubt, that's good reason for me to not believe in that God.
 
I am at a point where these questions which has no relevance to the thread should not even be said much less addressed by me. What does you question (Saladin) have to do with our discussion? What does that mean? Well. I don't know God wiped out people for specifically for their sexual orientation? I particularly don't believe he destroyed an entire race of people simply because they are gay I'm sure there was more to it than that. The people in Lot's time could have done some really bad things I don't know. But I believe God is just wiping a whole people out simply because of their sexual orientation is an unbelievable act. If I truly felt this way then I would cease to believe in any Abrahamic deity.
 
 I can add one more to your example of the prevalence of homosexuality in the animal kingdom (or so as you say). Male chimps stimulating each other sexually, due to the absence  of female chimps, as I read in some Wildlife site. We also find some chimps engaging in cannibalism. If we are to take points from that, perhaps Dahmer wasnt as sick as we thought he was, huh?
 
Humans are a sick species. We kill, torture and murder people just for pleasure! That is scary. And yes in some sectors of the world humans eat other humans too. This is why we are not different from other creatures especially chimps since as biologist have mapped out over 90% of our genes are linked to chimps. As far as Jeffrey Dahmer he was just  sick psychologically because he was a psychopath. It is weird even for some murders to eat their victim. Of course this is off topic. 
 
 
I am totally baffled by your response. Who has said that God is being held accountable for anything?
 
And, you actually did state in a few posts that we have no freedom of will, and quoted that man is passive Allah is responsible for all action....
 
God is not the cause of our actions, He is associated with our actions. There is a huge difference. God created me, the earthly environment I live in and gave me the freedom to choose my path, thus He is associated with my choices through His creation, but God does not cause me to choose the right path or the wrong path. I choose. 
 
Anyway, you have your belief and I have mine.
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
Back to Top
Israfil View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Joined: 08 September 2003
Status: Offline
Points: 3984
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Israfil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 May 2008 at 11:05pm

S.A you have greatly misunderstood AGAIN and tried to systematically explain to you what I mean. Anyway we've exhausted this long enough

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1 91011
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.