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Shasta'sAunt View Drop Down
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Points: 1930 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Shasta'sAunt Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:11am
Originally posted by Ron Webb Ron Webb wrote:

Originally posted by Shasta'sAunt Shasta'sAunt wrote:

However you try to describe the Trinity, you are still taking three separate entities and making them equal to God.
Not separate entities.  The same entity, different manifestations.  If my analogy of family relationships was unclear, try thinking egg, larva, chrysalis, butterfly.
 
What about the ever popular water, ice, evaporation?
 
The problem with these analogies is that these might be different aspects of one entity, but they are not three entities in one. 
 
Egg, larva, etc... is evolution of one entity. You do not have a separate egg, larva, chrysalis, and butterfly that somehow all form one being.  The egg evolves to the larva state which in turns evolves, etc...
 
You may be husband, father, and uncle, but you are not three Rons fulfilling these roles. You are one Ron in three different situations.
 
The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three separate entities.  If not, then how was Jesus filled with the Holy Spirit and to whom was he praying when he prayed to the Father? "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do."  Was he speaking to himself?  
�No one can make you feel inferior without your consent.�
Eleanor Roosevelt
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believer View Drop Down
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Points: 1397 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote believer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:33am
Don't you think a person can understand what another believes, but they don't have to accept it?
 
I have a good grasp of many religions, but I don't agree. 
 
Actually the butterfly is a good example of Jesus and ressurection.
 
I have used this one before -Air or water, you can separate some out all that is on the earth and put it in a container but it is still the air or water.
 
In the case of water the larger mass controls the level the water will seek- water towers and pressure.
 
In the case of the air in say a ballon, if the size of a ballon was not limited the outside air pressure allows the ballon to expand to just a certain point.
 
Equal componenets, make-up, but the one follows the "will" of the other.
 
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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Servetus View Drop Down
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The years go by, the twig grows up, and now, after all these years, the Christian King of Abyssinia stands pointing at a redwood tree, a giant sequoia, and says to the Islamic delegate before him:

 

�I swear, the difference between what we believe about Jesus, the Son of Mary, and what you have said is not greater than the height of this twig.�"

 

(This is me in shades: Cool  )

 

Serv



Edited by Servetus - 14 April 2008 at 8:59am
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honeto View Drop Down
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2008 at 2:52pm
Originally posted by jusaskin jusaskin wrote:

My purpose for presently being in this forum is to introduce one of my inquisitive grandsons to Islam, and for myself to learn more of your religion from, what I assumed to be, ordinary everyday Muslims. I can read the Quran, Hadith, and various books about Islam, but I wanted to hear Muslims discuss their beliefs among themselves and with others of different faiths, especially Christians. I have formed some opinions and would like a quick check before I leave the forum. Please tell me where you think I am wrong.

Christianity and Islam cannot come to a common understanding of the Creator. For a Christian, Jesus is the second person of the triune God, who became man in order to die on a Roman cross as a sacrifice for all of humanity. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are what Christians know to be one God, in a unity that is unique to human understanding.

Muslims will never accept those beliefs because they are specifically refuted in the Quran. When there is disagreement about anything, their interpretation of the Quran is the final word because it is supposed to have been sent for that purpose.

The Quran is reported to be in it's original Arabic wording exactly as received by Muhammad from the angel Gabriel, and is therefore believed to be a reliable reference when compared to the scriptures of Christians who must rely on translations of the original works, believed to have been corrupted over time.

A Christian will never accept the Quran's description of Jesus. If he does he ceases to be a Christian.

A Muslim will never accept the words of the Bible when they do not agree with their understanding of the Quran.

For either a Christian or a Muslim to accept the other's understanding of one God requires them to deny their own faith.

Having come to these conclusions, it seems pointless to ask further questions. I am willing to hear opinions on why my conclusions are wrong, but otherwise I feel that I am wasting my time and yours. However, I'd like to sincerely thank all those who were willing to discuss these things with me in the various posts

. Thank you!
 
Hi Joe,
I sense some disappointment from your post, I hope I am wrong. If your purpose to come to this forum was to learn, I hope you have learned something new you did not know about Islam. If your purpose was to share and preach your belief, I still hope you learnt something about your own belief, how others see it.
You wrote "A Muslim will never accept the words of the Bible when they do not agree with their understanding of the Quran."
Joe it is not that way, for a Muslim, the Bible was the word of God. Only after its alteration it is not wht it was before. Thus Quran was revealed and it is the pure word of God. So Muslims only accept the Quran to be the true guidance. We cannot take the word of Bible because:
1- The Quran confirms that it (Bible) was (sent by God but) altered by man.
2- Our study shows and confirms Quran's claim.
It is that honest study and its outcome that have brought many of Christians into Islam.
 
As a Muslim, I can never deny that there is One and Only God. That God does not beget, nor is God begotten. It is the same and Only God worshipped and preached by Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed (pbut).
Last but not least, there is no compromise on facts and truth intentionally when you sign up a car or house deal, why not apply the same principle here! isn't more at risk here than that?
Take care,
Hasan 
 
 


Edited by honeto - 14 April 2008 at 2:53pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2008 at 4:25pm
Originally posted by Sign*Reader Sign*Reader wrote:

If Allah who could create Adam from clay, and Eve from Adam why would have problems making Jesus out of Mary?
I doubt that you will find many modern Christians who believe that Adam was literally made from clay, or Eve was literally made from Adam's rib, any more than they believe that the world was created in six literal days.
 
I'm not saying that God would have a "problem" creating Jesus out of Mary.  What I'm saying is that if Jesus was a man, then by definition he had a Y chromosome.  That chromosome must have come from somewhere.  If it came from God, then by definition God is his father.
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honeto View Drop Down
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Points: 2487 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote honeto Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:19pm
Ron,
God creates, not Father his creations. You may need x and y, God does not, what is a miricle for us is nothing more than a word for God, and it is.
God is not made up of x and y like you and me otherwise its not God we are talking about. You seem to be stuck with Christian thinking that God is like  us, a human looking super size man, that has two arms, two blue eyes, blonde hair, and as you said x and y chromosome??
And why would I take anything serious from a book that has proved to  contradict itself in principle?
Hasan
 


Edited by honeto - 14 April 2008 at 5:19pm
The friends of God will certainly have nothing to fear, nor will they be grieved. Al Quran 10:62
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Ron Webb View Drop Down
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Points: 2467 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ron Webb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:30pm
God does not need a Y chromosome, but a man does, or by definition he is not a man.  Was Jesus a man?
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Nausheen View Drop Down
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Points: 4251 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nausheen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 April 2008 at 5:40pm
Auzubillahi Minash Shaitan ir Rajeem,
Bismillah ir Rahman ir Rahim,
 
When Allah created Adam, there was neither X nor Y to begin with. Nor there were the other 22 pairs of chromosomes.
 
Is it impossible for Allah to create something that does not follow the "laws of nature"  as we created beings know them?
 
Nothing is impossible for Allah. Jesus alaihe salam was a man. He will return, marry and have children like any other man on earth. But he did not have a father, and this is not difficult for Allah.
 
 
<font color=purple>Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa

Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena

wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.[/COLOR]
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