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aservant View Drop Down
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Points: 15 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aservant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 June 2005 at 10:25am
Originally posted by Ali Zaki Ali Zaki wrote:

By the way, I have talked to many Sunni brothers about this subject, and this is the first time that I heard any Sunni claim that Abu Bakr was APPOINTED by the Prophet (a.s.) as the first Caliph. So you deny that the Saqifa (election) took place? Isn't the Sunni position that the Prophet DID NOT appoint a successor? Please cite you sources for this information.

Dear Ali Zaki

 

I think that you get some kind of hallucinations while reading my post.  I did not say that prophet Muhammad peace be upon him appointed Abu Bakar (ra) as the first caliph.  What I said is that prophet peace by upon him during the time of his last sickness appointed Abu Bakar (ra) as the Imam of masjid-e-nabvi to lead the prayers.  This imam does not mean something like your supernatural imams who�s imamat in your eyes is superior to prophethood.

 

Why prophet peace be upon him did not appoint Ali (ra) to lead the prayers in masjid-e-nabvi if he was the best among all there?  By appointing Abu Bakar (ra) as the imam of masjid-e-nabvi, prophet peace be upon him gave a clear sign that Abu Bakar (ra) would be the leader when prophet peace be upon is not there.  This was a regular practice there for long time that caliph of this ummah was also the imam of masjid-e-nabvi to lead the prayers.

 

Once again I will ask that why prophet peace be upon him not appointed Ali (ra) as the imam of masjid-e-nabvi?

 

May allah guide you.

 

A well wisher
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Ali Zaki View Drop Down
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Points: 217 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ali Zaki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2005 at 6:29am

Salam Brother

aservent wrote,

" I did not say that prophet Muhammad peace be upon him appointed Abu Bakar (ra) as the first caliph. "

"By appointing Abu Bakar (ra) as the imam of masjid-e-nabvi, prophet peace be upon him gave a clear sign that Abu Bakar (ra) would be the leader when prophet peace be upon is not there".

This reminds me alot of what I used to hear in church, i.e., that 1+1+1=1. Allah (s.w.a.) and his messenger are more merciful then to leave any doubt about this issue. See "The Last Caliph" for more on this.

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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Ayubi1187 View Drop Down
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Points: 69 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ayubi1187 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2005 at 8:14am
And who is you to tel as what is merciful or not, are you Allah? What do you say if an agnostic person says if Allah is merciful why did he put as in this world.
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aservant View Drop Down
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Points: 15 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aservant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2005 at 12:01pm

dear Ali Zaki

just answer this question, if you can, that i have asked you two times.  why prophet peace be upon him appointed Abu Bakar (ra) to lead prayers in masjid-e-nabvi during his last sickness?  we know that in islamic sharia the person leading the prayers should be the best among all.  if Ali (ra) was the best of all then why prophet peace be upon him did not appoint Ali (ra) to lead the prayers?  why prophet peace be upon him appointed Abu Bakar (ra) as the imam in masjid-e-nabvi???

if you still do not understand my question then i can make it further clear.

a well wisher
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Ali Zaki View Drop Down
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Points: 217 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ali Zaki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 June 2005 at 12:22pm

Salam to aservent,

Here is the answer;  I don't know. Allah and the Prophet (a.s.) know better the reason (if this incident, which I am not familiar with, occured and/or had any significance).

You have said that Abu Bakr was not appointed by the Prophet. I am confused, as you seem to now be saying that the prophet WAS telling the people by this appointment that he WAS appointing Abu Bakr. So I have answered your question, maybe you can answer mine.

Did the prophet ever appoint Abu Bakr as his successor?

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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aservant View Drop Down
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Points: 15 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aservant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 July 2005 at 9:49am
Originally posted by Ali Zaki Ali Zaki wrote:

Allah and the Prophet (a.s.) know better the reason (if this incident, which I am not familiar with, occured and/or had any significance).

this is an event in undeniable history and its significance is clear, obvious and well known.

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You have said that Abu Bakr was not appointed by the Prophet. I am confused, as you seem to now be saying that the prophet WAS telling the people by this appointment that he WAS appointing Abu Bakr.

surely you are confused.  because you have set a definition of the word IMAM beyond the limits of reality.  when i say that Abu Bakar (ra) was appointed as iman in masjid-e-nabvi i mean an imam who leads the prayers in masjid.  in other words an imam-masjid.  but as you cannot think of anything other than a supernatural imam as you think of Ali (ra) then probably no one can help you unless you help yourself.

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Did the prophet ever appoint Abu Bakr as his successor?

the answer is no as well as yes.  prophet peace be upon him did not cleary say that who will be his successor because if he would have done this then every king and leader was going to take it as his right to appoint anyone of his personal choice as the successor.  so prophet peace be upon him due to his ultimate intelligence did not appoint any successor by name.  but in some ways prophet peace be upon him clearly indicated that who should be the successor.  during his life prophet peace be upon him lead the prayers for muslims.  during his last sickness when he was not able to lead the prayer the place of the leader in masji-e-nabvi to lead the prayer became vacant.  prophet peace be upon him made Abu Bakr (ra) to take his position and lead the prayers for muslims.  is this not a clear indication?  does it not clearly tell us that when prophet peace be upon him is not able to lead then Abu Bakr (ra) will lead?

as you said that you are not aware of this piece of history then i must tell you few more bits of this event.  during the sickness of prophet peace be upon him, due to some reason Omer (ra) once had to lead the prayer.  when prophet peace be upon him came to know about this he peace be upon him did not like it and said clearly that ONLY ABU BAKR (RA) WILL LEAD THE PRAYR.  dear Ali Zaki, if you still dont understand the significance of this event then no one can help you.

in the last i must appreciate your boldness and fairness in saying that you dont know.  i respcet this admittance.  we are all human beeings and we cannot have the knowledge of everything.  but we must understand that if we dont know about about something that it does not mean that no one in this world knows about that.  we must try to know.  and if you dont try to know then there is a great danger that you will waste your life in complete darkness.

may Allah give all of us the true knowledge.

a well wisher
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Ali Zaki View Drop Down
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Points: 217 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ali Zaki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 July 2005 at 5:20am

Dear Br. aservent,

"O ye who believe!  Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those vested with authority over you ('ul ul-'amr minkum).  And if you quarrel about something, refer it to Allah and the Messenger." (4:59 )

If this is a WELL KNOWN event in Muslim history, then why was there such a vigorous debate at Saqifa regarding who should be the successor the prophet? If there was a disagreement among those at Saqifa (and there certainly was a tribal dispute, as well as some who put forward the right of the appointed Imam (a.s.)), then why did they not obey Quran and refer it to the wishes of the messenger (if his wishes were clearly expressed by this event).

Did the prophet ever say that "Abu Bakr is my successor"? Did the prophet ever say " Abu Bakr is my Wasi?" Did the prophet ever appoint Abu Bakr as his representative (other then the incident of giving the "news" to the Quraish, when he was replaced by Imam Ali (a.s.))?

I find it amazing that you find the strong evidence in the incident you cited of Abu Bakrs appointment, and yet you ignore all of the hadith I have given you from your own books regarding Imam Ali (a.s.)

"He who wishes to live as I have, and die as I will die, and enter the Garden of Eternal Bliss which Allah has promised to me - let him take 'Ali as his leader (wali), because 'Ali will never lead you away from the Path of Truth, nor will he take you into error."

al-Mustadrak, al-Hakim, 3:128; Kanz al-Ummal, al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, 6:155

"'Ali is the authority (wali) over every believer (mu'min) after me."

Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, 5:25; Sahih Tirmidhi, 5: 296

"He who obeys me will have obeyed Allah, and he who disobeys me will have disobeyed Allah.  And he who obeys 'Ali will have obeyed me, and he who disobeys 'Ali will have disobeyed me."

al-Hakim, 3:221. 

(Regarding the Battle of Kaybar)

"I will certainly give this standard to a man whom Allah and His Messenger love;" other narrations say that the Holy Prophet (pbuh&hf) said: "Allah will grant victory through the one who loves Allah and His Messenger."  In either case, the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh&hf) gave his standard to 'Ali (pbuh), and Allah granted victory at his (pbuh) hand.

Sahih Bukhari, Book of Jihad and Marching, hadith #2724, #2753; Battles hadith #3888; Sahih Muslim, Book on the Merits of the Companions, hadith #4423 and #4424; Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, 5:333

Can you show me where the Prophet (a.s.) has said similar things about Abu Bakr???

 
"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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