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Topic ClosedDoes God Exist ?

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Lameese View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2005 at 9:20am

Well, you cannot see air, you feel it but you do not see it, yet it is there. What evidence is there to support that there is not an unseen? And about Adam from apes? Tell me, where is that missing link? Where did the 2% of genes split to create man and not ape? Where is the scientific evidence and not theory on that?

 

Lameese

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Dr Syed Alwi View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2005 at 4:50pm

Dear Lamese,

Air can be contained and subsequently liquified ! What missing link ? Haven't you read of the Australopithecus etc ? Slowly but surely, things are being rationalised and put into perspective. But where is the evidence for an Unseen ?

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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2005 at 4:51pm

My Dear Bro Alwi,

Originally posted by Dr Syed Alwi Dr Syed Alwi wrote:

In my younger days, I was a firm believer in God and in the Unseen. But I am not so sure anymore. I keep asking myself - if there is a God, will He then judge us Humans according to our beliefs or will He judge us according to our deeds - or simply both ? Nowadays I ask lots of questions. Why should someone who is born a Non-Muslim - a born Kafir - be sent to Hell for his/her beliefs when he/she dies as a Non-Muslim?

Did you ever consider your God (in your younger years) to be unjust? If no, then how come you expect this to happen the case over here? Shouldn't you need to make effort to seek the solution from the Quran itself? Did you ever opened the Quran to read it for understanding it and not for the ritualistic reading purposes only? A simple understanding of word "kafir" differring from "polytheist" would make a lot of difference in this undestanding. Word "Kafir" is used in Quran to the one who rejected the message of Allah through willful act. Do you think, is this willful rejection is being commited by all non-muslims? If no, then how could you consider them going to hell? It is the Will through which Allah ask all humans to either accept His message or reject it. The punishment is for those who, after knowing it, rejected the message and not for any others.

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 It makes no sense since we Humans do not have a choice as to what family we are born into ! Indeed one can go much further.

Yes, ofcourse it doesn't make sense. However, the problem lies with ones own apathy towards understanding of Islam from its original sources.

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Why not ask if God exists in the first place ? Hasn't Evolution demolished the hope of Creationists ? Goodness me ! Do you realise that there really is no scientific evidence for the world of the Unseen ?

Though, I am not a philosopher, but I do know that since science is cumulative positive (ever increasing) knowledge, it can only assert things that are discovered as yet. For the things not known, or not yet discovered, science is not better than faith. On the more, if theories are the basis onto which someone wants to live on then why not to consider the Intelligent Design (ID) theory which has confounded the evolutionists. Ofcourse, there would be numerous counter and counter-counter futile arguments to negate one over the other, but, is it a thing on which one can spend whole life? Better be a believer (a sure thing) than being a skeptic (un-sure of anything) atleast its not going to harm you (ofcourse through wisdom and logic).

Quote  That perhaps - we are just one planet among many in the Universe - with Life. There is a good chance that there are many other "Earths" out there in space...I guess I find a lot of peace and security in the firm evidence of Science.

I have intentionally highlighted and underlined some of your chosen words to emphasis as how much better or worst one can be when comparing it with having faith. I know and I accept that faith is beyond proof, however, as I said earlier, the unkown world of science is not better than this. You use word "uni-verse" but what if there are "multi-verse"? The science doesn't provide answer to it except theorizing it, then is it better than faith? I don't think so. On the more, is it not our faith that tells us to use logic and mind to discover whatever has Allah created in it for us to recognize Him? Then how do you limit yourself just to scientific knowledge and ignoring the spiritual knowledge. A spiritual knowledge which keeps you pushing further to explore more and more to reason out each and every aspect of the physical world.

Quote  Faith on the other hand revolves around unquestionable beliefs. Believe and don't ask embarassing questions ! Thats Faith ! But not Science. I guess I shall find out on my deathbed. Till then, I think I shall remain a Sceptical Muslim. Now thats a contradiction !

I think that is not a very accurate picture about faith especially with Islam. Simply because Quran is replete with verses asking us to use wisdom and logic to identify His glory, again through willfull conciousness and not through blind faith. Ofcourse, there are certain limitations and I would call it spiritual limitations (just like we have experimental limitations) in the case of faith, beyond which its not wise to extrapolate the spiritual observations. This is mainly related to the identity of Allah who is infinite in every capacity. So its not wise to define infinity through human interpretations otherwise it is not infinity. We, as muslims, know about Allah through His many beautifull attributes, and thus praise Him in that concept. Rest Allah knows the best.

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Dr Syed Alwi View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2005 at 5:06pm

Dear Ahmad Joyia,

To each his own. Faith is something which comes from mere belief. It does not rely on proofs. But Science does. That is why I find peace in Science...I take the view that organised religion must be taken with a pinch of salt. Some doubts in religion is good.

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Israfil View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2005 at 5:08pm

Dr Syed Alwi, God's blessings and peace to you....

I have exteneded an invintation via PM (personal message) if you wish to discuss this topic more privately without the static of many people responding all at you my mailbox is indeed and always open (so long as this website exist).

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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2005 at 5:09pm
Dear Bro Dr Alwi

And how about reading Quran with your own open mind and wisdom?

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Israfil View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2005 at 7:43pm

First and foremost as a Muslim I welcome the discussion of this current topic which is the question "Does God exist?" As Muslims the Qur'an teaches to welcome such questions as God would have it in his precious book many arguments. I believe we as Muslims in these online discussion tend to get a bit emotional when it comes to answering a critique of our faith. I hope I can turn the tides around by briefly discussing my point.

First and foremost the discussion of whether God exist or not is a subjective discussion. when we argue that God exist it is because of religious/spiritual faith and reason. But how our reason leads us to God all comes to how we see things. When science argues that science is based on empirical study so too spiritualist can argue the same by saying that God, being incorpereal exist within all life forms and whose being does not consist of any body but in essence.

I  do agree however that science provides clear and objective truths about this world in which we cannot argue against. One of such is evolution which Syed mentions here. True that evolution is a factor of creation but it does not explain the complexity in life. For instance evolution cannot explain such abstracts such as love, faith, reason and spirituality. Even though it explains in detail how life forms go from one state to another.

As Muslims we shouldn't be surprised about how life forms evolve sinc eAllah has mentioned the stages of life. Also he mentions how languages evolve as well as forms and our skin tones. I believe that science and God are not seperate but interchangable. I believe the problem with Dr. Syed is that its quite hard to find spirituality in God when one does not feel God. I believe the proof is not in actually seeing God but the spiritual experience. I believe the essence of God is not found just in religion but in life.

I believe for one person to prove that God exist to another is a bad idea but one must experience God for proof to exist. This must be an individual search.

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Dr Syed Alwi View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 June 2005 at 9:46pm

Dear Israfil,

I am not anti-religion. I take the view that organised religion must be taken with a pinch of salt. That we must adopt a mature and enlightened attitude towards the business of religion. Islam is just one religion among many. In a multi-religious society like in South East Asia - one must develop a healthy respect for all religions including those other than Islam. At the end of the day, all religions are good provided we take them with a pinch of salt.

Regards

Dr Syed Alwi

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