oh boy - what a beauty!

 Martha:

 I find it very strange if  muslims dont know the basics of Islam though. It sends out a very bad message to non-muslims doesnt it. And doesnt unite muslims on the whole.

 It is true that muslims are not aware of many basic things. That is why they are divided into sects and they are having different ideas. Do not worry. Just keep your eyes and ears open. Insha Allah you will understand with time.

Lack of funds and other constraints is not a reasonable excuse for failing to understand Islam, wherever muslims live.

What I mean is that the muslims do not have as much funds and facility to propagate their faith and in despair they do the wrong things such as that reported from Malayasia. or such as the king of Saudi arabia pardoning a lady victim of rape against the ruling of the Sharia court. And such as calling all those who did not recite the Kalimah as kaafir. etc.

 These are basic important things to be sorted out to live and progress in the world. Islam has given the correct answer for all these things only if any one will listen or agree.

 Muslims can face all kinds of restraints when it comes to practising Islam, I understand that, but Islam first of all should be in our hearts. No one has any influence over that.  I dont know if Doo-bop is muslim or not.  I feel very sad when muslims fail to unite throughout the world.

 Yes, you are right.  Unity is necessary. I will get back to you about the unity of Muslims, Insha Allah. Doo-bop seems to be christian. But only he can tell.

minuteman wrote:    Doo-bop, God is one and the same for all. it is the uderstanding of God that is different in different faiths. You say god has a son. But we have in chapter 112 of quran: 1. say that He, Allah is One. 2. He is not in need of anything. 3. He niether begets nor is He begotten. 4. There is none like Him any where.  Now here please understand why your god has a son? Does he need a son?? Our God (Allah ) does not need anything, any son or wife etc. The word begotten is only to be used for the birth of children as it is metioned in the bible NT, Mathews ch1, verse 2, abraham begat Issac, Issac begat Jacob...  you please tell me how did your God beget Jesus?? Please use only the bible language and do not invent one of your own language.  God is the same, only One for all creation. You have different understanding of God and Muslims have different understanding. That is all.  We Muslims believe in all men (prophets) of God. While you do not do so. We have got Jesus too as a prophet at least (you also have him as a prophet). But you do not believe that Muhammad is a prophet of God. And perhaps you do not believe in many other prophets too. These are the problems.  We have the books, Torah and Bible, as the revealed holy books to the true men of God. You do not have any intention of considering the Quran as a revealed book. So the differences continue.

Thank you, minuteman, for this full and frank confession.  You have further proved that we do not worship the same God.  You have admitted it here yourself, since you refer to "your God" and "my God", not "our God", and, of course, you are correct to do so, as I have always said.  You see how simple it is to pick holes in your arguments?

So now you are claiming that because God has a Son, that he needs a son?  Please show some understanding here.  Let us consider the claims you make for Allah, your God.  You say he needs nothing, but yet that he made the world, indeed the whole universe.  Why?  Did he need it?  If he did not need it why did he make it? ---The answer is that there is no reason to suppose he needed it, just because he made it.  And so there is no reason to suppose God needed a Son, just because he begat one

Btw, I wish you would stop pretending to Martha that you are a Muslim.  You and I both know what you are.  As an Ahmadiyya person, you are not considered to be a Muslim (I am not saying this, but the Muslims say it, as you fully well know) --and you will also know that in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan (so-called!) your people are not allowed to call their places of worship "mosques", nor to refer to themselves as "Muslims" just as the Christians of Malaysia are not being allowed to refer to their God as "Allah"......(why the latter should even want to is another matter, an even bigger mystery...)

Doo-bop,

Christians believe that  God is also known as 'Father in Heaven'. Do you agree with this so far?

If this is the case then, not only  is Jesus the Son of God, but we are in fact all sons and daughters of God. Let me explain further.

God made the earth and the whole universe for a very important reason. I imagine you are a Catholic Christian. If this is the case I dont expect you to understand the following as it is not something you believe. But I'll explain something I learned as a Christian. But remember that I am now a muslim. And muslim for a reason.

Before the earth was formed we lived in spirit form, all together, as spirit sons and daughters of God. We saw that God was perfect, and had a body, and we also wanted the same. So God made the earth and put Adam and Eve in the world. This way we could obtain a body.He said that when we came to earth that all knowledge of our previous life would be erased, but that he wouldnt abandon us, and would give us messengers to guide us. He gave us free choice to make our own decisions during our time on earth. He said that we would be tempted by Satan, to go astray and this could prevent us from getting to Heaven. If we followed the messengers he sent ie Noah, Abraham, Moses etc etc also Jesus, then we had the opportunity to be saved, by our deeds. Jesus atoned for all the sins of every person on earth. This was a necessary part of the plan. As Adam and Eve had both sinned in the Garden of Eden all humans would be open to sin also.  As such, Jesus was our older brother in the life before this one. But we wouldnt necesarily recognise Him in this life. That depended on whether we believed He was the Son of God.

Basically this was the plan. And another perspective of a Christian faith that God needed to make the earth.

Now these ideas above will disturb you as a Christian.

Fortunately I am sensible enough to know that there are many truths in many religions, whether we understand them all or not.

I am trying to understand Islamic truths, and concentrate my time on this. As you are Christian I would have thought you would have felt that your time would be better spent understanding your own? There is little to gain trying to prove another religion is wrong, wouldnt you agree? What is it that makes you want to prove Islam wrong? Do you also try to prove other Christian religions wrong? If you dont accept my explanation above of the creation, then maybe you should.

I am more than happy to discuss your religion with you if you like. Or is it that you dont really believe in it yourself to be able to give satisfactory replies? ( I havent read through all the threads, maybe you have already explained about your faith somewhere. I am happy for you to direct me if this is the case)

Doo-bop wrote: minuteman wrote:   Doo-bop, further to my above post, we believe that the religion of Islam did not start with MUHAMMAD. It was the religion of all prophets of God starting from adam a.s. to Noah and abraham and MOSES a.s. and Jesus a.s.  Our religion is not named after a place or person, nor is it racial. It is Islam, meaning Peaceful. That is not Muhammad or Makkah or Arabia and notlike Christianity being named after  a person (Jesus Christ). Please think over and be kind / considerate. As you know, minuteman, we do not accept that Islam existed before Muhammad.  There is also no evidence for that.

No one has claimed that Islam, as defined by the Ummah after Prophet Muhammad (saw), was around before him. You are either extremely ignorant, or you are trying to play obtuse as a means to convolute the point given to you and waste time (your typical pattern) so you can take another cheap shot at my faith.

Islam, being a path that a Muslim submits to God has been around, which carries the central core teachings, regardless of the nation that the message went to.

Your assertion that "Islam" means "Peaceful" is furthermore nonsense.  We know that it means "submission"

You have already been shown, answered, and replied to. Peacemaker has already warned you about "spamming" the forum with your evangelical howler about Islam and peace.

Islam is a faith of peace. Your Christian hypocrisy exceeds all bounds. Your God Jesus can take place in the slaughter of children, but you simply brush it off as, "piouse Christian violence that was required for the other covenant", and then have the further nerve to wash your hands of it and say that Jesus did not actually teach you to do that, just the other people, as if an illogical teqhnical point really serves your purpose. Your trying to make a distinction without a difference, and then you actually believe that this irrational garbage really removes you from the theological mess of your bible. And that is why Christianity is seen as intellectually bankrupt, and that is why the average convert age to your faith is in their teens.

You have been warned once about your continued jab at Islam in the context of peace. You have been answered and replied to on many occasions, if you do not agree, then you will have to agree to disagree and move on from this point. Consider this your first official warning.