The true defenders of Palestine...

Hi Anatolian,

I suppose the only thing I can add to this thread is this.

The Jewish people were scattered over the face of the earth. From what I understand, God allowed this to happen when the Jews failed to recognise Christ as the Son of God.

However the Jews also know that in the last days they will be allowed to return to Israel, the promised land. This was Gods promise to them. So it will be then I suppose that the Jews can, without compromise from anyone else, be able to worship freely in the Dome of the Rock.

Of course at this time the great battle of Armegeddon will take place. Israel will belong to its rightful owner. As like the rest of the world, carnage will be at its greatest. Only the righteous will escape and God/Allah will save those he chooses to. Some will say the fortunate will be taken in the 'blink of an eye' But we also know that some righteous people, as is in the case of many current world events, will be caught up in the fighting, and perish.

I have yet to fully understand The Islamic view on the end of the world, So would appreciate it if someone could explain it to me. I only heard one explanation about gogmegog. And that was a bit difficult to understand, as a young muslim boy told me that lots of little people came out of the earth with picks and swords killing all the bad people.

Anatolian, I cant give a satisfactory explanation as to why the peoples of the world are so misplaced, and ill treated. But one thing is for sure, God/Allah gives us the opportunity as individuals , to gain knowledge, so that hopefully we are in the right place at the right time when the all important and inevitable end of the world takes place.

NB I have written this without intending harm or upset to any religion or person. So please remember that I am only poor martha, trying to make sense of it all myself.

Anatolian wrote: Excuse me I don't remember defending Israel in my post neither do I defend the settlements. I believe Palestinians have a right to demand what belongs to them. They are the ones who were forcefully removed to create a state for a people who barely share any common roots. I know more of the conflict there then you Mrs. Wife. Your attacking me for really no reason. I stated that Palestinians receive more aid from non- muslims then many of you would like to think. I know all about the secret deals being made by Syria, Lebanon, and most of the Arab world who are still in a "war" state with Israel. And of course the open dialogues and economies of countries like Jordan, Egypt, and Saudia Arabia never help the Palestinian cause. You want my opinion about that affair. At this point the Jews are there to stay no matter what anybody else wishes. Jerusalem is to become under a Jewish, Christian, and Muslim leadership, stop settlements in Jerusalem and the West Ban and return the land that was forcefully taken and the Israelis can keep the ones they purchased legally. At this point this is the only way to go. Evangelicals are not helping I never said I supported what they do. They are forcefully bringing the "end" of days by reestablishing a Jewish state in the land that was once called Israel. What's 500 million for the Saudis really? If they stopped funding Jihad infused madrasas in Pakistan and Africa and spent it on funding real schools and hospitals and actually buying back the land even (everything has a price) wouldn't that help the Palestinian lot?

Anatolian, forgive me if your original post seemed to side with Israel rather than the Palestinians.  That was the impression I got.  Thankyou for clarifying that with your rude attack at me and your presumption of what I do or do not know.

I also agree that Israel is not going anywhere and people need to get over that.  Yet Israel's illegal actions and victimizing need to be stopped.  As you said, the land stolen from them should be returned and Jerusalem be made available for all three religions. 

It is not to say that Christians haven't done a lot for Palestinians.  I don't deny this.  What I do say is they also raise considerable money for Israel to continue building settlements which defeats the purpose of helping the weaker Palestinians.  The US government gives over 4 billion dollars a year to Israel and sometimes up to 10 billion.  I hardly think the 500 million they are giving the Palestinians compares.  I cannot see how you can think giving the big, stronger guy considerably more money is made up for by giving the weakened one a much smaller figure.  It barely helps anything and often Israel stops the money from getting to the Palestinians anyway.  These are my points.

As for it being preached that there are 3 Gods, in essence that is what many Christians preach.  I was arguing this with my Pentacostal family just recently.  All growing up I was told that the Father, son and holy spirit are the seperate entities that make up God.  Yet I couldn't figure out how the son could speak to the father if there is only one God.  Yet they preach that Jesus is God too.  I cannot speak for every sect of Christianity, but I can speak for what I learned in the Pentacostal and Baptists churches I went to and was babtized in.  Finally when none of my questions could get answered, I gave up and found a religion that did satisfy my answers and made sense. 

So I would appreciate you speaking to me as someone whose roots are in America since before the United States became a country and was forced to sit many Sundays in church.  I am not defending all that the arab countries do.  I think they could have helped the Palestinians in a far more productive way and I never said they did do a lot for them (I had quoted that they should do more if you had read that).  Also, I agree they often do more harm than good.  Yet you cannot accuse all arabs/muslims of not trying to help Palestinians.  There are plenty that do just like Christians.  Which you obviously know from your statements that Christians do a lot to further the Israeli cause of gaining all of the land it wants.  Until Christians stop doing that, I can't take the donations they give to Palestinians more seriously.  Remember the US government is Christian (except a couple of congressman).  If you can blame all muslims for their governments actions than you can blame all Christians for their governments actions.  Otherwise you need to seperate the two and give them each their own credit.

As for religious tolerance in the United States, it is better than many countries, but it is far from perfect.  I can't get days off for the muslim holidays but the Christians can.  I can't go to Friday prayers at the mosque because they are held during work hours.  Yet Christians can be given time to go to church.  I don't even have the right to wear the hijab at my work, so please don't tell me about religious freedom.  I don't see it being perfect as you seem to display it here in America.

martha wrote: I suppose the only thing I can add to this thread is this. The Jewish people were scattered over the face of the earth. From what I understand, God allowed this to happen when the Jews failed to recognise Christ as the Son of God.

Please don't add some thing that is not historical fact--They do not recognize Christ being the son of god even today and lots of other folks- the destruction of the temple and the Jewish diaspora was the result of them not recognizing Roman emperor "Caligula" as god and rising up in revolt and losing.

martha wrote: However the Jews also know that in the last days they will be allowed to return to Israel, the promised land. This was Gods promise to them.

You need some history lesson here so bear with me!

The promise of God for the promised land was for all children of Israel from slavery to freedom and not for the Jews only that did come to pass after their roaming in the desert of Sinai.  And then they refuse to do the God's missionary work and bickered and fought among themselves till they were destroyed by the Babylonian Nebuchadnezzar II and taken in slavery to Babylon. They were given a second chance but their were allowed to come back o Jerusalem but then again the same story of   political infighting and love of money against God's laws. The God's contract with children  of  Israel was annulled by the immaculate birth of Jesus born of Mary.  It was sign from God with this miraculous birth that the chain of God's revelation  was to be finally pulled away with Jesus being the last chance to repent and believe through the House of Israel. But when Jesus flipped their money tables in the Temple they planned to have him killed/crucified and lose their way. Then there was nothing left but  confusion and conjecture that has made up the sects and religions that came out of the ashes of destroyed Jerusalem by Caligula's forces!

Out of lost tribes of Israel what was left the Juda's; the jews they survived with their love of money intact and they imploded their old captors in Europe and benefactors amongst Ottomans into wars and out came the monster of Zionism.  The Zionist schemed with their  background in the modern warfare being nurtured in the homes of the colonialists to  dispossess Arab Palestinians of their homes. The world was in disarray after the great wars and  any claim against an Arab lands was fair game for the colonialist. The countries were created as the winner of the WWII saw fit so that is the way Zionist saw the opportunity to have a  the  piece of the province called Ottoman Palestine, they had better armed than the local leaderless camel riders -- In final analysis you snooze you lose. There are other causes too but I leave those for some other time. 

martha wrote: So it will be then I suppose that the Jews can, without compromise from anyone else, be able to worship freely in the Dome of the Rock.

Martha  do you know what the Dome of the Rock is?

Non Muslim particularly the Jews (& Xians) are forbidden to go over the Temple Mount where the Dome of the Rock is located till the arrival of their messiah. The Xians are the ones who brought the most filth to the Temple Mount during their occupation of Jerusalem.

Jews can pray at the wailing wall (the western wall)only.

martha wrote: Of course at this time the great battle of Armageddon will take place. Israel will belong to its rightful owner. As like the rest of the world, carnage will be at its greatest. Only the righteous will escape and God/Allah will save those he chooses to. Some will say the fortunate will be taken in the 'blink of an eye' But we also know that some righteous people, as is in the case of many current world events, will be caught up in the fighting, and perish.

In the Book of Revelation, God, ushering in the Great Tribulation judgments, commands seven angels to pour "seven vials of the wrath of God" upon the Earth. Armageddon then follows the pouring of the sixth vial (or bowl):

"And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon."

They are trying to make it self fulfilling prophesy by creating a destruction in ME and justifying the killing for sake of oil. Why did boy king invaded Iraq cuz he was totally immersed in the  dual propaganda on one side the evangelical Xians and other the MIC conglomerates itching for the loot. Now the biggest den of thieves and  killers is housed(Occupation HQ) in area called Green zone is right on the  Euphrates riverbend walled of behind 12 feet tall concrete barriers like the infamous Berlin Walls in Baghdad as we speak.

Has anybody seen angels come down to approve all that when the death toll is running over a million Iraqi civilians and thousands of Americans dead and wounded and trillion tax payer dollars down the pockets of thieving  corporations. Where was the other army? The concept of Armageddon is based on the preterist gobbledygook:

martha wrote: I have yet to fully understand The Islamic view on the end of the world, So would appreciate it if someone could explain it to me.

I just wanted to pick up on something Salams_wife said. I hope you are not including the UK in your list of countries regarding the immigrants. We do allow them to come here and settle, and work like the rest of us. There is a huge gap between British and Asian communities still, but not as the fault of the British Government. We are strict with anyone who does not follow the rules ie illegals, though we should be more strict. Muslim women can wear the hijab in most work places, and employers do allow their workers to go for Friday prayers. I have to say though that many muslims abuse this and take extra time to socialise after prayers. I dont feel this is right, but thats my view. Islam is freely taught in schools, along with other religions, and ramadan and Eid is recognised as important to muslims. There are a growing number of muslim politicians. Any disturbance of the peace is usually kept between rival muslim gangs, so we generally dont see the rioting as happens in France. Of course we are only a small country, and dont have religious belts as the US, so it is probably easier here in some ways.  It's a shame that the US being a world super power, has so many internal issues. It must be hard sometimes for you salam's_wife.

OK back to the topic. My previous comments were Bible based. These in themselves become part of history at some point. But as much as possible I stear clear of politics. That subject never satisfies anyone, and we keep going over old ground. But thats my opinion.I realise that the Jews have yet to accept Jesus as the Son of GOd. And I dont know if they realise about the final gathering in Israel. I only mentioned the Jews, because of the Bible connection. I have yet to understand if muslims were mentioned in the Bible regarding the last days.

I do know that the Dome of the Rock is significant for both Jews and Muslims. Many years back when I was in Israel I visited it, and also the Wailing Wall. Yes, I did pray at the Wailing Wall, and left a note in the wall as is permitted(well it was then,dont know now)

I know I have kept my answer very brief again. And I have probably left out more important details again And I'm very happy when someone corrects me. Its the best way to learn isnt it? Unfortunately I dont have foresight to anothers reaction when I post here.So bear with me if I seem dumb sometimes. My intentions are always well meant.