Why war on ISLAM??

Unfortunately brother, one of the things that would concern me is what brand of Islam would they govern the folks with in the country.

 

Hamsheer�em, my point is very simple.

A people should be free to choose any brand, any breed of what they like. Who are we? The keepers of Islam or its copy rights holders?

 

I believe that humans hold the simple straightforward right to follow any practices, any religion, folklore, culture, whatever in any way they like. And, we plus, least of all, the Pentagon or any other Grand Council of Greed have no right, at all, of telling them what to do or what not to do.

 

It�s a natural learning process. If it doesn�t work for them then it�s up to them to choose what�s the next best thing for them.

 

the true type of Islamic rule that was enlightening and tolerant as practiced by Islamic Spain in mid medeviel times, or the head chopping off force the women to be illiterate and wear burqa type that was practiced in Afghanistan under the Taliban ruled regime?

 

Well, the burqa is perhaps the worst thing that can ever happen to any woman, but just in our parts of the world. I have known a good majority of women, in Muslims countries, who adorned their burqa despite their men�s demands to be free and open.

 

It�s something blown out of proportion, I have not been able to work out by who.

 

In time, if Afghans didn�t like or generally felt unsafe with the Talibaan, they would have definitely blown them out almost like stubbing a cigarette in an ashtray. It�s exactly their matter how they like to live or behave with their women. We do not have any right to implement any Manhattan model or caste them in moulds of our fancy.

 

What breaks my heart is my Afghani refugee friends that I am working with to teach them to read and write, at least in English. Once they learn the English lettering they can read even the transliterated stuff in their own language. These are women aged 15 to 42, who were not allowed to attend school.

 

The two set ups, the Industrialised US and the Afghani or, for that matter, any other on the sand dunes of Sind or the Mid East, are very different. I have been across both these. Had I found that the woman in Seattle had gained something after she was converted into a mortgage sharing slave I would have stood by you and shouted for all the women of the world to do that!

 

I have tried to look kindly at a set up in which a footballer�s muse can spend in a day what a mother or a teacher can�t earn even in a whole life time. Just vulgar comes to mind.  

 

True the American and foreign occupation has been a bad thing, but I think the viciousness of the former rulers of Afghanistan were worse. I would not like to see the Wahabbi form of Islam there also.

 

Maryah, what if they come to choose it?

Maybe Secularism is better. For whatever people fault America, the founding fathers had the right idea when they wrote the constitution and the bill of rights.

 

Absolutely!

But, did the Founding Fathers� prescribe that if some people fail to look like us, we must shower them from 52,000 feet up in the air, with some of the lethal stuff?

 

Jefferson was not a "christian, he was a secularist, but he believed in the separation of church and state.

 

I agree with you, but only to the extent that if the people in the US wish to keep the state separate from religion � WE HAVE NO OBJECTIONS AT ALL.

 

But, if some people wish to run their state or states in keeping with their religion why should we bomb them or even object to what they want?

 

nu001
Senior Member

Sorry brother, don't mind for my comments, It might sound harsh but I think that's the reality.

My friend, why would I mind anything, ever? We are here to sing our own songs, in our own tunes,

What do you mean by pakistan wants? People? or Military?

This survey is based on peoples� opinions and aspirations.

what people wants is immaterial in pakistan, what military wants that's final. They will remain in control of power for eternity by feeding different capsules (Democracy, secularism, islamic etc etc) what ever can keep the people quiet for sometime.

Eternity? All things come to their end, sooner or later. The army occupation of Pakistan is nearing its end.

But the rule reamins to be a military rule, with or without uniform. Past sixty years should be enough to understand that. And a military rule can only provide different form of autocracy, coz that's what they have learnt and made for all over the world. Just like a mango tree can't produce apple, a man can't give birth to a child even if u try a million years, Army can't produce democracy in million years.

I agree with you, these 60 years and five months have been a nightmare. But as they say sometimes enough becomes enough and change coughs in. The conditions are now set for a change.

 

Army won�t produce democracy, the people will.

Even a corrupt democratic politician can provide a better denocracy in course of time. See the example next door in india.

Not just in India, but it has been that way in every single country of our world. People start from somewhere and then carve a system out for themselves.  

Pakistan needs a people's revolution, which the pakistanis are not capable of because of many reasons, they can only make some chaos, the situation suits the west perfectly to keep pakistan in their hand and dependant.

My friend, solutions always rise out of a process of chaos.

don't like to make it lengthy, it's useless talking about any kind of democracy in pakistan.

Yes, it�s useless, perhaps, now. But the coming time is something else.

Unfortunately brother, one of the things that would concern me is what brand of Islam would they govern the folks with in the country. the true type of Islamic rule that was enlightening and tolerant as practiced by Islamic Spain in mid medeviel times, or the head chopping off force the women to be illiterate and wear burqa type that was practiced in Afghanistan under the Taliban ruled regime? What breaks my heart is my Afghani refugee friends that I am working with to teach them to read and write, at least in English. Once they learn the English lettering they can read even the transliterated stuff in their own language. These are women aged 15 to 42, who were not allowed to attend school. True the American and foreign occupation has been a bad thing, but I think the viciousness of the former rulers of Afghanistan were worse. I would not like to see the Wahabbi form of Islam there also.
Maybe Secularism is better. For whatever people fault America, the founding fathers had the right idea when they wrote the constitution and the bill of rights. The right to worship as one pleases without interruption (the colonists left Britain because of this issue, Brits were forcing Henry the VIII's church on everyone) The right to own property without having to quarter the state, freedom of expression and speech, was the original intent. Jefferson was not a "christian, he was a secularist, but he believed in the separation of church and state. The problem lies with the extremists that live in this country, that want their extreme views and religion to be everyone's. And the big money people are throwing their views too. I am sure the current president and administration is bought and owned. What the people here need to do is read their own constitution on their own and take back what is theirs. Problem is though that higher education is too costly now for the common man, funding has been cut by the Burro of a president, that and funding for healthcare for children. New Orleans is being rebuilt by Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt. See there are good non muslims in the world! We should not judge between muslim and non muslim? We all have our own prisons, I would rather stay in this sleepy town in Mexico and dodge the cartels than dodge the feds!
Try crossing the international border here, it is traumatizing!

Diagoras
Senior Member

It is only the Islam which still influences the state value systems to a large extent.

Would you kindly list some achievments of brazen greed based state value systems?

That is, quite frankly, a terrible thing. Why should a Muslim be able to tell me how to wear my hair or who I can have sex with? What business is it of theirs?

I have once before asked you when did that happen and where, but you seem to have evaporated into some non-existent thin air well matched with your statement.

Do you hold the guts at least to clarify what your statement means?

Diagoras wrote: However, it is not anti-religious but secular. Putting words don't change an act, encouraging a culture against the bible and incidents of scarf banning etc out of many actions of these governments are clearly anti religious than being secular, if we know the same definition of secularims. Can you explain it please !! The role of the State is not to enforce the moral views of one religion or another (that leads only to the terror and carnage of the Dark Ages) but to ensure that the liberties of its citizens are defended. I agree that in a secular state enforcing religion is not expected, but encouraging and enforcing anti religion acts also should not be expected, isn't it? I am not sure religion leads to terror and carnage, is the society any better off in values than the period you are talking about? That is, quite frankly, a terrible thing. Why should a Muslim be able to tell me how to wear my hair or who I can have sex with? What business is it of theirs? And the reverse is true, I have no right to tell a Muslim that they cannot worship their God so long as that worship does not trample on my liberties. A State ruled by religion will only encourage religious war and hatred. I meant in the countries where islam is the state religion, islam influences the value system, not the secular states you reffer to. As far the west is concerned, muslims don't complain if women move around half naked or in bikinis why should the state have problem with muslims preffer to have Hijab? A states value system must be guided by a religion depending on the predominant religion, with freedom for other religions, religions are creators instruction manuals, He knows the best how his creation will function the best, why should it spread hatred, no religion preaches hatred. What happened before may not be inspired by religion, they just happen to belong to some religion, but surely was not adhearing to it. The car you bought has a instruction manual from it's manufacturer, if you think you are a genius and ignore that, soon you will find the car in the garbage, for sure.