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minuteman
Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2007 Status: Offline Points: 1642 |
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Diagoras, USA is a recent case. The example of England may even be better than USA as far as democracy is concerned. Please have a look at the recent and very old history too. Then tell us something, some example of good and bad governments. I won't support the present day Iran but I will ask you whether you knew anything about the late king of Iran. Is the present system of Iran better or that rule by the King?? Also please keep in mind the lesson / opinion given by the greatest philosopher (Socrates) who preferred the rule by a philosopher king as the best one ( The Republic). He kept the democracy at the third place. We need to look after the moral values also, not only liberties and the statues of unbridled liberties. So far, the going is quite good for USA. But who knows what is in store for the people. Every one is free to think and solve the national problems. We hope they will keep up their good work. If leaders in Iran and Afghanistan are not ruling well then that is not the fault of Islam. It can be blamed on the misguided leaders. The state may not be theocratic at all. But if a state sticks to the good advice given in the Quran then all matters of reasonable civil liberties are defined in that book. One can make maximum use of it. No harm. And the transition can be gradual, as it had happened in Makkah and Madinah. Many non muslim governments of the present day are far better and much more sensible than the muslim governments. The Muslims should have learnt a good lesson from the secular governments. But they did not. So they will keep on suffering. And they will bring a bad name to the religion of Islam too. |
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Diagoras
Senior Member Joined: 06 November 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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The United States also grew out of its slave-trading, misogynistic background. However, theocracies such as Afghanistan and Iran have intensely oppressive laws regarding women and civil liberties.
Where in the tenets of Islam are checks and balances, or democracy, or unalienable liberties enumerated? And how is a government built on Muslim principles fair to all of its non-Muslim citizens? Democracy and republicanism - including respect for human rights - only arose out of the Enlightenment when the power of religious, autocratic authorities was replaced with secular, democratic ones. Christofascist here in the United States are trying to return us to a Dark Ages civilization, I do not wish to follow them. |
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herjihad
Senior Member Joined: 26 January 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2473 |
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Salaams, I disagree with you Diagoras. The problem rests in the fact that the US government was founded by people who owned slaves and didn't regard women as intelligent beings with the right to vote. A foundation of such evil matters can only bring evil into it. However, Islaam came into an idol worshiping, misogynistic, corrupt, class conscious, slave trading society and turned it around with some immediate laws, and some that were eased in over time to end all of these evil practices. Many people have twisted the laws of Allah, The Evolver, and they will meet the judgment of Allah, The All-Powerful for their deeds. However, the basic ideals of how a society should operate do lie within the tenets of Islaam. And that is a much better place to start to make a document designed to govern with peace, fairness, and respect for human and animal life and property. |
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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Diagoras
Senior Member Joined: 06 November 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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Erm...the United States is the way it is today precisely because it didn't follow its constitutional origins. As you pointed out, the Bill of Rights specifically prohibits many currently existing laws and is being violated.
I'm not asking if you support America, or its Constitution. I'm asking if you support a system built on the principles of a constitutional republic (institutional checks and balances, power comes from the people, separation of church and state, etc.) From your reply I'm guessing you support a theocratic state, is this true? |
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herjihad
Senior Member Joined: 26 January 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2473 |
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Salaams, To answer your first question, I would need to sit down with that paper, the constitution, and go over it in detail to tell you the necessary changes, which I'm not interested in doing. When I am asked to be a part of a committee that would undertake that, that might be a different story. As to your second question, I kind of feel like a Czech during the Second World War being questioned by the Nazis during occupation as to my loyalties to the Fuhrer. Do you know how bad that question sounds during these times of the UnPatriotic Act and liberal suspension of your hallowed "Bill of Rights"? People are shocked when I tell them that DHS could come into anyone's homes here in good ole USA and search, seize, and take you away without charging you or informing anyone of your whereabouts. When you haven't seen me post for months at a time, you'll know I'm banned, dead or taken prisoner for being a believer in Allah, and a believer in human rights and freedom, and an outspoken critic of your hallowed system of government and finances! Allah, the Most Loving, does not take human rights away ever. Allah, The Glorious, gives us rights and responsibilities, and our loyalites as Muslims lie with Allah, The Most Righteous, not a government system or a paper that destroys humanity, and especially those who love Allah. Allah, The Just, embued women and people of all races with inherent dignity. It is only blind loyalty to systems not inspired by Allah that creates agony among humanity. We need to know that all cultures, all races, all people can return to Allah's mercy through listening to the wisdom that Allah, The Wise, has provided for us. Really, we need to start by stopping the destruction and by taking real, positive action that makes a difference in this world. And I say that last sentence to you as a fellow American. Peace |
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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Diagoras
Senior Member Joined: 06 November 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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Okay, what would you change about the Constitution?
And by the way, do you support a constitutional democratic republic? |
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herjihad
Senior Member Joined: 26 January 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2473 |
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Salaams, Enshrining something is akin to worshipping it. The Constitution is a piece of paper written by the people I mentioned previously, a bunch of nasty white guys who cared for their own freedoms but not that of people of color or women. They did a few things right. We should keep those things. It is not self-correction when the blood and lives of hundreds of thousands is spilled to change it. And right now it is an embarrassing, evil shame on all of us. We sit here quietly discussing this while millions of people suffer because of its inadequacies. Now, if the people of this land -- where I and my family have lived for a couple hundred years -- rise up, as Tom Jefferson recommended we do, and overthrow this tyranical, evil, culture-and-country-destroying machine, then I may say that it is eventually self-correcting. I am ashamed of this government and those of my people who are in power today who allow this evil empire that it has become, to continue, while all we do is say: This is bad! We need to do something! Let's DO something! Wait. Maybe the people who are relatively comfortable in our homes, even though we struggle with all of the torture and deaths, are just sitting here saying: As long as they don't come for Me, it's better not to really do anything. (We know that this lack of principle has not worked in the past of course. They'll come for us whenever it suits them.) We should have stood up to Bush and thrown him out long ago! We are responsible, and so is our constitution, which I consider completely unenshrinable. |
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Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Diagoras
Senior Member Joined: 06 November 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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The fact that both of those horrors were abolished shows that the system works, it self-corrects. But anyway, what in particular would you rewrite?
Oh, by the way, it's not the American Constitution in particular that my sig talks about but rather a constitutional form of government. Namely, a representative democracy with separation of powers and enshrined individual liberties. |
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