IslamiCity.org Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Religion - Islam > Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Saudi women want end to driving ban  What is Islam What is Islam  Donate Donate
  FAQ FAQ  Quran Search Quran Search  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Topic ClosedSaudi women want end to driving ban

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Message
seekshidayath View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Female Islam
Joined: 26 March 2006
Location: India
Status: Offline
Points: 3357
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 September 2007 at 6:56pm

You cannot expect women to be so dependent on men that they cannot live their lives without one.  This is not what God wants, he doesn't want us to be slaves of circumstance and he certainly doesn't want us to sit at home miserable because there is no chaperon to take us to the library.  Idle hands serve the devil. 

Angela if circumstances demand to work then there's nothing wrong in that. But its wrong to say women are so dependant on men. Likewise, i would say here that in such cases where women are at home, even men are very dependant on her.  Being idle is also wrong. I totally agree that it serves devil. Awoman has got lots of her talents hidden. Its only we need to recognize them utilise it. Wives of our Prophet SAWS, also did businesses, did we ever happen to read that they were on any trip. For instance take the case of our Prophet who before bestowed with prophethood worked for kHADIJAH RA, She was a renowed businesswoman. Did she happen to come out. Even the other wives of prophet, did various bussineses being at home.

Woman can educate a society being at home. U said u wish to serve commuinty and shall complete a course of computers. Its not necessary that u work at else insitutes rather open them at home. Start up with 2 computers atleast.

Other point i wish to add is women deprive of there responsibilities when go out for work, be it unwillingly. For instance, if you were a working lady and during that accident, how would u have given time to your husband? U either have to give up your job or spare little time to husnad who demands your attenion. At other cases, what shall a woman do when her children demand her attention when they are ill? Such situations be it small require utmost attention of a woman and can be fulfilled only by a woman. As i said earlier, woman can beautify her own world being at home itself.

Am sorry am off topic of driving. I totally agree with the fatwa of saudi. But as marked by sis Alwardah, that the fatwa shall vary st places.

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
Back to Top
Hayfa View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Female
Joined: 07 June 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2368
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2007 at 4:31am

You know there was a thread on this awhile ago.. same issue, women driving in SA.

Limiting women from driving, as if it some special thing is really about control. Let me ask, why do they not allow women to drive with husband, father present? Are they not prohibited from driving at all? Why shouldn't they be allowed to drive period?

Other point i wish to add is women deprive of there responsibilities when go out for work, be it unwillingly. For instance, if you were a working lady and during that accident, how would u have given time to your husband? U either have to give up your job or spare little time to husnad who demands your attenion

Is this not true if the man is busy at work and cannot spare time for his wife, thus neglecting his "husbandly" duty? how many husbands go to work and then head out with their brother friends, living the wife alone at home. Happens alot. Here in the west, people take what is called "sick leave." You take a day off.  Obviously it is about whether you are wealthy enough to do so.

Driving is not specific to only women who are doctors, teachers, etc if the ban is lifted every women who wished to drive will drive. What is so wrong when a scholar who can foresee the Fitnah that will come to his society to try and prevent it by warning his people of the evil consequences?

 

Yes nut it is not even allowed for doctors, teachers etc. There are no exceptions. So where is the practical, even basic level covered? Let's saya woman is a doctor. Her patient is in labor, about to give birth. She needs to go and get there. It is 10 minutes away. So she has to find someone to come and get her? Where in the world is the logic?

 

When I was in Pakistan there were women driving. And Pakistan is a fairly conservative society. Not a lot of women drove. But some did. So it is wrong to say if it is allowed all women will "start doing it."

 

Why do we need female nurses for men hospitalised. There are even male nurses.

 

Well the reality is that women have been nurses in all societies. And it cannot be denied that women were nurses during the Prohet's time. And if it was fine then it is fine now.

 

You cannot have it both ways. Women are the more nautural "at caretaking." If a woman is more natural at being "motherly" so are nurses. We nurture the sick, old, young, etc.

 

Yes women can go to male doctors. And if you want to have an Islamic society it is also good to have women nurses. Most women in Moslem societies do not want to get naked for check-ups with male doctors. And giving birth etc.  It is good for decency and such.

 

I have no problem is someone shows with Quran and Hadith that something is such and such. What is more of an issue is this man"s "reasoning."  But there is nothing that says in any place that women should be completely prohibited from driving. Even with a mahram present. They make an outright prohibition for teachers, doctors etc. So it appears to put and classify all women and this is not at all right. I wil lbe judged upon Judgement Day. Just like any man. If I over step the line then I live with that. But to deny me my rights as a human being cause "i might" so something wrong, it to treat me as a child. And in fact treat men as chidlren. Really.

 

Of course they can do what they want. But we can have opinions.

 

 

 

 

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
Back to Top
Andalus View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group

Joined: 12 October 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1187
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2007 at 5:05am
Originally posted by Alwardah Alwardah wrote:

As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

 

I am not sure if I can post this fatawa in the "Current Events" but since it is related here goes: -

 

Does the ruling on driving a car vary from one country to another?

Question:

Throughout the Muslim world we find that there are differences between one country and another, in manner of dress, customs and traditions. For example we see that in some countries our sisters wear niqaab, because they follow the fatwa that says that niqaab is obligatory, but that is not widespread in another country, and the opinion that they follow there is that niqaab is not obligatory, rather it is mustahabb. Similarly with regard to women driving cars, in some countries the shaykhs have declared it to be haraam because of the harms that would result if it were allowed, whilst in other countries it is a very ordinary thing for a woman to drive a car, and they have been doing so for decades.
 To what extent is there flexibility in rulings? Is what is happening correct, I mean is it right that something may be obligatory in one country and mustahabb in another?.

Answer:

Praise be to Allaah.  

 

The rulings of sharee�ah are of two types: 

1 � Those where the evidence of sharee�ah points to the ruling, regardless of various customs or what good or bad consequences may result. 

 

In this case the ruling is fixed and does not vary from one place to another or from one person to another, unless a person is forced to do something, is sick or is excused, in which case the ruling is waived as much as required by his situation according to what it says in sharee�ah.  

 

An example of such a fixed rule is the obligation to offer the five daily prayers, to fast Ramadaan, to enjoin what is good and forbid what is evil, to seek knowledge, etc. 

 

Another example is the obligation for the Muslim woman to cover her entire body, including the face and hands. This ruling is obligatory and does not vary from one place to another. 

We have already discussed this obligation in questions no. 21134 and 13647, where we quote the evidence for that. 

 

2 � Rulings which are based on specific reasons, or where the ruling as to whether a thing is forbidden, allowed or obligatory depends upon whatever good or bad consequences will result from that, and where there is no shar�i evidence to suggest a fixed ruling that does not vary. The issue of women driving cars may come under this heading. 

 

The scholars have issued fatwas stating that it is haraam because of the negative consequences that may result from it. 

This applies completely to the land of the two Holy Sanctuaries. With regard to other countries, the matter should be referred to trustworthy scholars for they know their countries� situation best. 

Shaykh �Abd al-�Azeez ibn Baaz (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: 

 

People have spoken a great deal in the al-Jazeerah newspaper about the issue of women driving cars. It is well known that it leads to evil consequences which are well known to those who promote it, such as being alone with a non-mahram woman, unveiling, reckless mixing with men, and committing haraam actions because of which these things were forbidden. Islam forbids the things that lead to haraam and regards them as being haraam too.  

 

Allaah commanded the wives of the Prophet and the believing women to stay in their houses, to observe hijab and to avoid showing their adornments to non-mahrams because of the permissiveness that all these things lead to, which spells doom for society. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

 

�And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance, and perform As-Salaah (Iqamat-as-Salaah), and give Zakaah and obey Allaah and His Messenger. Allaah wishes only to remove Ar-Rijs (evil deeds and sins) from you, O members of the family (of the Prophet), and to purify you with a thorough purification�

[al-Ahzaab 33:33] 

 

�O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e. screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed�

[al-Ahzaab 33:59] 

 

�And tell the believing women to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts) and not to show off their adornment except only that which is apparent (like both eyes for necessity to see the way, or outer palms of hands or one eye or dress like veil, gloves, headcover, apron), and to draw their veils all over Juyoobihinna (i.e. their bodies, faces, necks and bosoms) and not to reveal their adornment except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband�s fathers, or their sons, or their husband�s sons, or their brothers or their brother�s sons, or their sister�s sons, or their (Muslim) women (i.e. their sisters in Islam), or the (female) slaves whom their right hands possess, or old male servants who lack vigour, or small children who have no sense of feminine sex. And let them not stamp their feet so as to reveal what they hide of their adornment. And all of you beg Allaah to forgive you all, O believers, that you may be successful�

[al-Noor 24:31] 

 

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: �No man is alone with a (non-mahram) woman but the Shaytaan is the third one present.� 

 

Islam forbids all the things that may lead to immorality or accusations of immoral conduct made against chaste women, who never even think of anything touching their chastity, and it has stipulated a punishment for that which is one of the most severe of punishments, in order to protect society from the spread of the causes of immorality. 

 

Women driving is one of the means that lead to that, and this is something obvious, but ignorance of the rulings of sharee�ah and the negative consequences of carelessness with regard to the things that lead to evil � as well as diseases of the heart that prevail at present � and love of permissiveness and enjoying looking at non-mahram women all lead to indulging in this and similar things, with no knowledge and paying no attention to the dangers that it leads to. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

 

�Say (O Muhammad): (But) the things that my Lord has indeed forbidden are Al-Fawaahish (great evil sins and every kind of unlawful sexual intercourse) whether committed openly or secretly, sins (of all kinds), unrighteous oppression, joining partners (in worship) with Allaah for which He has given no authority, and saying things about Allaah of which you have no knowledge�

[al-A�raaf 7:33] 

 

�and follow not the footsteps of Shaytaan (Satan). Verily, he is to you an open enemy�

[al-Baqarah 2:168] 

 

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: �I am not leaving behind me any fitnah more harmful to men than women.�  

 

It was narrated that Hudhayfah ibn al-Yamaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: �The people used to ask the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) about good things, but I used to ask him about bad things, fearing that I would live to see such things. I said, �O Messenger of Allaah, we were in a state of ignorance (jaahiliyyah) and evil, then Allaah sent us this good (i.e., Islam). Will there be any evil after this good?� He said, �Yes.� I said, �Will there by any good after that evil?� He said, �Yes, but it will be tainted.� I said, �How will it be tainted?� He said, �(There will be) some people who will guide others in a way that is not according to my guidance. You will approve of some of their deeds and disapprove of others.� I said, �Will there be any evil after that good?� He said, �Yes, there will be people calling at the gates of Hell, and whoever responds to their call, they will throw them into it (the Fire).� I said, �O Messenger of Allaah, describe them to us.� He said, �They will be from among our people, speaking our language.� I said, �What do you command me to do if I live to see such a thing?� He said, �Adhere to the jamaa�ah (group, community) of the Muslims and their imaam (leader).� I asked, �What if there is no jamaa�ah and no leader?� He said, �Then keep away from all those groups, even if you have to bite (eat) the roots of a tree until death overtakes you whilst you are in that state.�� Agreed upon. 

 

I call upon every Muslim to fear Allaah in all that he says and does and to beware of fitnah and those who promote it. He should keep away from all that angers Allaah or leads to His wrath, and he should be extremely cautious lest he be one of these callers to Hell of whom the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) tells us in this hadeeth. 

 

May Allaah protect us from the evil of fitnah and its people, and protect this ummah from the evil of those who promote bad things. May He help the writers of our newspapers and all the Muslims to do that which pleases Him and may He set the Muslims straight and save them in this world and in the Hereafter, for He is Able to do that. 

Majmoo� Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn Baaz, 3/351-353. 

 

Shaykh Ibn �Uthaymeen was asked: I hope you can explain the ruling on women driving cars. And what is your opinion on the idea that women driving cars is less dangerous than their riding with non-mahram drivers? 

 

The answer to this question is based on two principles which are well known among the Muslim scholars: 

 

The first principle is: that whatever leads to haraam is itself haraam. The evidence for this is the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

 

�And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides Allaah, lest they insult Allaah wrongfully without knowledge�

[al-An�aam 6:108] 

 

So Allaah forbids insulting the gods of the mushrikeen � even though that serves an interest � because it leads to insults against Allaah. 

The second principle is: that warding off evil � if it is equal to or greater than the interests concerned � takes precedence over bringing benefits. The evidence for that is the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

 

�They ask you (O Muhammad) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling. Say: In them is a great sin, and (some) benefits for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit�

[al-Baqarah 2:219] 

 

Allaah has forbidden alcohol and gambling even though there is some benefit in them, so as to ward off the evils that result from them.  

Based on these two principles, the ruling on women driving should be clear, because women driving includes a number of evils, including the following: 

 

1 � Removal of hijab, because driving a car involves uncovering the face which is the site of fitnah and attracts the glance of men. A woman is only regarded as beautiful or ugly on the basis of her face, i.e., if it is said that she is beautiful or ugly, people only think in terms of her face. If something else is meant it must be specified, so that one would say that she has beautiful hands or beautiful hair or beautiful feet. Hence it is known that the face is the focal point. If someone were to say that a woman can drive a car without taking off her hijab, by covering her face and wearing dark glasses over her eyes, the answer to that is that this is not what really happens when women drive cars. Ask those who have seen them in other countries. Even if we assume that this could be applied initially, it would not last for long, rather the situation would soon become as it is in other countries where women drive. This is how things usually develop; they start out in an acceptable fashion then they get worse.

 

2 � Another evil consequence of women driving cars is that they lose their modesty, and modesty is part of faith as is narrated in a saheeh report from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Modesty is the noble characteristic that befits the nature of women and protects them from being exposed to fitnah. Hence it is mentioned in a metaphorical sense (in Arabic), in the phrase �more modest than a virgin in her seclusion.� Once a woman�s modesty is lost, do not ask about her. 

 

3 � It also leads to women going out of the house a great deal, but their homes are better for them � as the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said � because those who love to drive enjoy it very much, hence you see them driving around in their cars here and there for no purpose, except to enjoy driving.  

 

4 � You may find a divorced woman going where she wants, whenever she wants and however she wants, for whatever purpose she wants, because she is alone in her car, at any time she wants of the day or night. She may stay out until late at night. If people are complaining about this with regard to young men, then what about young women, going all over the place the length and breadth of the country, and maybe even beyond its borders. 

 

5 � It is a means of women rebelling against their families and husbands; at the least provocation they may go out of the house and drive in the car to wherever they think they can get some peace, as happens in the case of some young men, who are able to put up with more than women.  

 

6 � It is a cause of fitnah in many places: when stopping at the traffic lights, or at gas stations, or at inspection points, or when stopped by policemen at the scenes of traffic infractions or accidents, or if the car stalls and the woman needs help. What will her situation be in this case? Perhaps she may come across an immoral man who takes advantage of her in return for helping her, especially if her need is great to the point of urgency. 

 

7 � When women drive it leads to overcrowding in the streets, or it deprives some young men of the opportunity to drive cars when they are more deserving of that. 

 

8 � It causes fitnah to flourish because women � by their nature � like to make themselves look good with clothing etc. Do you not see how attached they are to fashion? Every time a new fashion appears they throw away what they have and rush to buy the new things, even if it is worse than what they have. Do you not see the adornments that they hang on their walls? In the same way � or perhaps more so � with the cars that they drive, whenever a new model appears they will give up the first for the new one. 

With regard to the questioner asking, �And what is your opinion on the idea that women driving cars is less dangerous than their riding with non-mahram drivers?� � what I think is that both of them involve danger, and one is more serious than the other in some ways, but there is no necessity that would require one to do either of them. 

Please note that I have answered this question at length because of the controversy that surrounds the issue of women driving cars, and the pressure faced by conservative Saudi society, which is striving to adhere to its religious commitment and morals, to allow women to drive cars. 

 

This would be nothing strange if it were to come from an enemy who seeks to cause harm this land which is the last bastion of Islam that the enemies of Islam wish to penetrate. But what is even stranger is that this is coming from our own people who speak our language and live under our banner, people who are dazzled by what the kaafir nations have of material advancement and admire their ways which are devoid of any moral restrictions. 

 

End quote from Shaykh Ibn �Uthaymeen. 

 

With regard to countries in which woman are allowed to drive cars, Muslim women should avoid that as much as possible, for the reasons mentioned above. 

 

In cases of necessity, such as helping accident victims or fleeing from a criminal, there is nothing wrong with a Muslim woman using a car in such situations, if she cannot find a man to help her. 

 

There are other cases, such as women who have to go out to work and have no husband, father or guardian to look after them and no income from the government to meet their needs, and they cannot find work that they can do at home, such as some internet-based jobs, so they are forced to go out. In that case they can use the means of transportation that poses the least danger to them. 

There may be some means of transportation that are available only to women, or a group of women may hire a driver to take them to work or university. Using taxis� for those who can afford it � may be better than using public transportation where a woman may be exposed to humiliation and aggression, so they should use taxis, so long as they are not alone with the driver. 

 

If a woman is forced to drive a car in cases of extreme need, then she should drive wearing full jilbaab and hijab, and with fear of Allaah. 

 

We have already mentioned above what constitutes need. 

 

Women should also seek fatwas from the trustworthy scholars in their own countries � not those who are too lenient � who understand both sharee�ah and the situation in that country. 

 

And Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): 

 

�So keep your duty to Allaah and fear Him as much as you can�

[al-Taghaabun 64:16] 

www.islam-qa.com

Question no 45880

Wa Alaikum Salam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu

Obviously a "wahabi" run site will feel insecure about a woman "driving", and will uphold the Saudi view (no one should be suprised, these are the same guys that denounce mawlid as innovation, kufr, shirk, etc, etc). Their reasoning is weak as it plays on "doorway theology". Such and such thing "may" lead to something, therefore it is not permissible. (which is the excuse the Saudis give when they rip apart and destroy ever remaining bit of Islamic history to make way for high rise hotels and parking lots to bilk hajjis out of their money.) There is no good reason why a woman should not be allowed to drive, as long as the distance does not exceed a certain amount and then she will require a guardian, which still does not mean she cannot drive. In my opinion, religion becomes a tool for a weak minded and insecure male culture to bolster their position in relation to females as a means to control them. Face it, many male Muslims have the female dress code down like second nature, and will go to all lengths to enforce it with great zeal in the name of God...if only many males had the same drive to enforce their fard prayers and sunnah prayers. Countries like Saudi Arabia have turned nearly half of its population into unproductive, uneducated servants in the name of religion. This is why I have found that when some Saudi men are stationed in the US for training, they enroll their daughters in driving school and sometimes even swimming lessons (depending on their age of course).

The real issue that needs to be brought out is the idea of culture vs religion.

 

"Dr. Afaf Al-Bar, associate professor of Arabic at King Abdul Aziz University, agrees with Al-Qarni that Islam does not prohibit women from driving. �But the problem is that our society is not ready for women driving yet,� she said. Even though she can drive abroad, she does not think that the social environment in the Kingdom is suitable for women driving. �There are also problems such as lack of parking facilities, bad road conditions and reckless driving,� she added."

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&section=0&article=37 834&d=11&m=1&y=2004

Allah knows best



Edited by Andalus
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
Back to Top
Andalus View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group

Joined: 12 October 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1187
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2007 at 5:09am
Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

Angela, you are right about the safety factor. We are all less safe when we are alone. Crime is about opportunity as well as motive. That is why people break into homes with women alone and rape them.

It is irritating as driving is a skill. They don't even say the women can drive with a mahram with them. So it is stricly about "control". If they cannot drive they have to "obey." This is treating women as though they are children. They cannot make decisions for themselves. 

You know, I never even thought of the rule that a woman could drive with a mahram present.  When my husband was hurt, he could not drive for nearly 3 months.  I had to carry him up and down stairs to the bathroom.

I could not live the Islamic life that the fatwa posted says I have to. 

 

neither could I, as a male, or my wife. That fatwa was an extreme position by Saudi clerics that has subtones of "male control" in the name of faith written all over it. As a man, I do not want a helpless automaton to mother my children. Children should be raised by the best.  

 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
Back to Top
Alwardah View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Joined: 25 March 2005
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 980
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2007 at 6:18am

Sister Angela, I just want you to know that I am not being sarcastic when I say that you have better knowledge about Islam in some aspects than me. I have always found throughout my time in this forum the deep insight you and Sister Angel have not only about Islam but other religions and ideologies as well. I am always amazed by the way you and Angel stand up for Islam despite being non-Muslims. In a few threads I have also posted to that effect, expressing my feelings.

 

Regarding the Hadith in question. I cannot add much except that it was revealed in Al-Madinah, when Islam was at its peak and at a time when both men and women lowered their gazes. Personally I would say this Hadith applies more today than at the time it was revealed as our level of Iman is no where near the level of Iman of the early Muslims.

 

Peace

�Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)
Back to Top
Alwardah View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Joined: 25 March 2005
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 980
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2007 at 6:29am
Originally posted by Andalus Andalus wrote:

Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

Angela, you are right about the safety factor. We are all less safe when we are alone. Crime is about opportunity as well as motive. That is why people break into homes with women alone and rape them.

It is irritating as driving is a skill. They don't even say the women can drive with a mahram with them. So it is stricly about "control". If they cannot drive they have to "obey." This is treating women as though they are children. They cannot make decisions for themselves. 

You know, I never even thought of the rule that a woman could drive with a mahram present.  When my husband was hurt, he could not drive for nearly 3 months.  I had to carry him up and down stairs to the bathroom.

I could not live the Islamic life that the fatwa posted says I have to. 

 

neither could I, as a male, or my wife. That fatwa was an extreme position by Saudi clerics that has subtones of "male control" in the name of faith written all over it. As a man, I do not want a helpless automaton to mother my children. Children should be raised by the best.  

 

As salamu Alaikum

Thanks for informing me that those of us who oppose such ideas are "controled children who do cannot make any decisions". I wonder how the women at the time of the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa Sallam) felt when these statements were made...... maybe they did not have a mind of their own - as I don't see any Hadith opposing such views by anyone even, the wives of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam)

I would appreciate some Hadith even weak ones to change my views and opinions. I need help -real help to become a real woman- as I am a "helpless automaton" in a woman's body because I of my belief.

Peace



Edited by Alwardah
�Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)
Back to Top
Andalus View Drop Down
Moderator Group
Moderator Group

Joined: 12 October 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1187
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2007 at 11:58am
Originally posted by Alwardah Alwardah wrote:

Originally posted by Andalus Andalus wrote:

Originally posted by Angela Angela wrote:

Originally posted by Hayfa Hayfa wrote:

Angela, you are right about the safety factor. We are all less safe when we are alone. Crime is about opportunity as well as motive. That is why people break into homes with women alone and rape them.

It is irritating as driving is a skill. They don't even say the women can drive with a mahram with them. So it is stricly about "control". If they cannot drive they have to "obey." This is treating women as though they are children. They cannot make decisions for themselves. 

You know, I never even thought of the rule that a woman could drive with a mahram present.  When my husband was hurt, he could not drive for nearly 3 months.  I had to carry him up and down stairs to the bathroom.

I could not live the Islamic life that the fatwa posted says I have to. 

 

neither could I, as a male, or my wife. That fatwa was an extreme position by Saudi clerics that has subtones of "male control" in the name of faith written all over it. As a man, I do not want a helpless automaton to mother my children. Children should be raised by the best.  

 

As salamu Alaikum

Thanks for informing me that those of us who oppose such ideas are "controled children who do cannot make any decisions". I wonder how the women at the time of the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa Sallam) felt when these statements were made...... maybe they did not have a mind of their own - as I don't see any Hadith opposing such views by anyone even, the wives of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam)

supposition. the fatwa, nor my opinion, does not conflict with what the Sahaba practiced or how the wives felt. That is a strawman.

The issue is traveling distance, not the medium for traveling. The problem that the Saudi clerics have with the medium is cultural (though they hide behind deen), not religous. The notion that it (the driving) could lead to some other things that "might" be bad is poor logic and pure rubbish. They take that principle to extremes that suit them. Lets destroy grapes and wipe them out..why not? If we follow the poor reasoning in the fatwa, then we should destroy grapes, because someone might make wine.

 

Quote

I would appreciate some Hadith even weak ones to change my views and opinions. I need help -real help to become a real woman- as I am a "helpless automaton" in a woman's body because I of my belief.

Peace

I would appreciate some hadith, even weak hadith, that tell us a women is not allowed to use some medium, other than their own two feet, to get from point A to point B. I find it humerous that Saudi clerics are the first to cry foul at the use of "reasoning" in the case of ijtihad, and here they are, when it is convenient, using "reasoning" to make the outlandish claim that it is impermissible for women to drive. Talk about stretching the evidence to fit a conclusion.

The problem with these bin baaz and Co fatwas, is that they are thrown around like they are mainstream, sunni ideals, and when non-believers read them, they think that the overly rigid life style they proclaim is standard for everyone, scaring them away from Islam. I wish their Q and A site had a clause with "wahabi" or "neosalafi" next to it, or at least be intellectually honest and provide the views from the establshed madhabs.....enough of the other opinions so that Muslims living in the west do not feel they have to make their home like the Kingdom, which is not a "Islamic" paradise. I wonder when these same clerics will issue fatwas about their masters who pay their salaries and fund their dawah and also engage in horse racing, and the wasting of money on "haram" lifestyles. It is like the house is on fire and they want to complain about the TV channel.  

I cannot help you Sr. It is up to you to choose the way you practice your faith. My point is not to change you, I do not engage in sophistry. My point is that your sources are not mainstream, and do not reflect mainstream scholarship, but represent a model used in the Kingdom. This is what I wanted to clarify for the non-believers who come here to learn about Islam. If you feel your life is great, then al hamdullilah. For a woman who wants to drive for the right reasons, al hamdullilah, there is nothing in the deen that states she cannot.

Assalam aleikum



Edited by Andalus
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com
http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/
http://www.pt-go.com/
Back to Top
Alwardah View Drop Down
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar
Joined: 25 March 2005
Location: South Africa
Status: Offline
Points: 980
Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 September 2007 at 2:13pm

As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu Brother Andalus

Well there are many incidents in the history books that point to the fact that women used camels and donkeys from point A to B but the animal was lead by a male. I am sure you must have read those stories too.

I get your point loud and clear. I am not sure whether i should post this here or under "Comments"

To date I have not found anything on the site or by these clerics that contradict with the Shariah. But what do I know, I am only touching the surface in my search of knowledge, you and the others are the experts.

As a moderator please can you clarify for me the following points:

1.      Is Islamicity Forum an Islamic site reserved for a special group of muslims.

2.      Are the views of only particular scholars accepted

3.      Are the Fatawas from only particular sites accepted.

I need this information to decide whether to continue my membership on this forum.

You know what is ironical last year about this time � actually during the first few days of Ramadan, I left a Yahoo egroup because the moderator kept rejecting the Fatawa I post from Sunnipath and Islam Online but the last straw was when she sent me very derogatory articles on some of these scholars whose Fatawa I used to submit. A year later I am facing the same decision because of similar reasons   but this time it is the other way round. I take Fatawa and knowledge from many websites. I don�t agree with some and agree with some. However I will not accept disrespect to any scholar and loathe being the cause of it. I feel that when we criticise a scholar or cleric as you call them, who quotes from the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah then we are indirectly or maybe be directly criticising  the noble teachings of the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam). I will have no part in this. Thanks! May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala forgive us from our ignorance. Ameen!

You are correct where I get my information and how I chose to live it, is my choice.

I am sure I will find a forum that accepts both views - those presented by the Wahabi Clerics and non-Wahabi clerics. I regard both as Sunni scholars and there is lot to learn from both sides.

Till I get a response and decide what to do, I will continue posting in the Kiddies Corner � Let�s try, Daily Hadith and Ayat etc.

Wa Alaikum Salam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu



Edited by Alwardah
�Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.03
Copyright ©2001-2019 Web Wiz Ltd.