Saudi women want end to driving ban |
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seekshidayath
Senior Member Female Islam Joined: 26 March 2006 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 3357 |
Posted: 28 September 2007 at 6:56pm | ||||
You cannot expect women to be so dependent on men that they cannot live their lives without one. This is not what God wants, he doesn't want us to be slaves of circumstance and he certainly doesn't want us to sit at home miserable because there is no chaperon to take us to the library. Idle hands serve the devil. Angela if circumstances demand to work then there's nothing wrong in that. But its wrong to say women are so dependant on men. Likewise, i would say here that in such cases where women are at home, even men are very dependant on her. Being idle is also wrong. I totally agree that it serves devil. Awoman has got lots of her talents hidden. Its only we need to recognize them utilise it. Wives of our Prophet SAWS, also did businesses, did we ever happen to read that they were on any trip. For instance take the case of our Prophet who before bestowed with prophethood worked for kHADIJAH RA, She was a renowed businesswoman. Did she happen to come out. Even the other wives of prophet, did various bussineses being at home. Woman can educate a society being at home. U said u wish to serve commuinty and shall complete a course of computers. Its not necessary that u work at else insitutes rather open them at home. Start up with 2 computers atleast. Other point i wish to add is women deprive of there responsibilities when go out for work, be it unwillingly. For instance, if you were a working lady and during that accident, how would u have given time to your husband? U either have to give up your job or spare little time to husnad who demands your attenion. At other cases, what shall a woman do when her children demand her attention when they are ill? Such situations be it small require utmost attention of a woman and can be fulfilled only by a woman. As i said earlier, woman can beautify her own world being at home itself. Am sorry am off topic of driving. I totally agree with the fatwa of saudi. But as marked by sis Alwardah, that the fatwa shall vary st places. |
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Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: �All the descendants of Adam are sinners, and the best of sinners are those who repent."
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Hayfa
Senior Member Female Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2368 |
Posted: 29 September 2007 at 4:31am | ||||
You know there was a thread on this awhile ago.. same issue, women driving in SA. Limiting women from driving, as if it some special thing is really about control. Let me ask, why do they not allow women to drive with husband, father present? Are they not prohibited from driving at all? Why shouldn't they be allowed to drive period? Other point i wish to add is women deprive of there responsibilities when go out for work, be it unwillingly. For instance, if you were a working lady and during that accident, how would u have given time to your husband? U either have to give up your job or spare little time to husnad who demands your attenion Is this not true if the man is busy at work and cannot spare time for his wife, thus neglecting his "husbandly" duty? how many husbands go to work and then head out with their brother friends, living the wife alone at home. Happens alot. Here in the west, people take what is called "sick leave." You take a day off. Obviously it is about whether you are wealthy enough to do so. Driving is not specific to only women who are doctors, teachers, etc if the ban is lifted every women who wished to drive will drive. What is so wrong when a scholar who can foresee the Fitnah that will come to his society to try and prevent it by warning his people of the evil consequences?
Yes nut it is not even allowed for doctors, teachers etc. There are no exceptions. So where is the practical, even basic level covered? Let's saya woman is a doctor. Her patient is in labor, about to give birth. She needs to go and get there. It is 10 minutes away. So she has to find someone to come and get her? Where in the world is the logic?
When I was in Pakistan there were women driving. And Pakistan is a fairly conservative society. Not a lot of women drove. But some did. So it is wrong to say if it is allowed all women will "start doing it."
Why do we need female nurses for men hospitalised. There are even male nurses.
Well the reality is that women have been nurses in all societies. And it cannot be denied that women were nurses during the Prohet's time. And if it was fine then it is fine now.
You cannot have it both ways. Women are the more nautural "at caretaking." If a woman is more natural at being "motherly" so are nurses. We nurture the sick, old, young, etc.
Yes women can go to male doctors. And if you want to have an Islamic society it is also good to have women nurses. Most women in Moslem societies do not want to get naked for check-ups with male doctors. And giving birth etc. It is good for decency and such.
I have no problem is someone shows with Quran and Hadith that something is such and such. What is more of an issue is this man"s "reasoning." But there is nothing that says in any place that women should be completely prohibited from driving. Even with a mahram present. They make an outright prohibition for teachers, doctors etc. So it appears to put and classify all women and this is not at all right. I wil lbe judged upon Judgement Day. Just like any man. If I over step the line then I live with that. But to deny me my rights as a human being cause "i might" so something wrong, it to treat me as a child. And in fact treat men as chidlren. Really.
Of course they can do what they want. But we can have opinions.
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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Andalus
Moderator Group Joined: 12 October 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1187 |
Posted: 29 September 2007 at 5:05am | ||||
Obviously a "wahabi" run site will feel insecure about a woman "driving", and will uphold the Saudi view (no one should be suprised, these are the same guys that denounce mawlid as innovation, kufr, shirk, etc, etc). Their reasoning is weak as it plays on "doorway theology". Such and such thing "may" lead to something, therefore it is not permissible. (which is the excuse the Saudis give when they rip apart and destroy ever remaining bit of Islamic history to make way for high rise hotels and parking lots to bilk hajjis out of their money.) There is no good reason why a woman should not be allowed to drive, as long as the distance does not exceed a certain amount and then she will require a guardian, which still does not mean she cannot drive. In my opinion, religion becomes a tool for a weak minded and insecure male culture to bolster their position in relation to females as a means to control them. Face it, many male Muslims have the female dress code down like second nature, and will go to all lengths to enforce it with great zeal in the name of God...if only many males had the same drive to enforce their fard prayers and sunnah prayers. Countries like Saudi Arabia have turned nearly half of its population into unproductive, uneducated servants in the name of religion. This is why I have found that when some Saudi men are stationed in the US for training, they enroll their daughters in driving school and sometimes even swimming lessons (depending on their age of course). The real issue that needs to be brought out is the idea of culture vs religion.
"Dr. Afaf Al-Bar, associate professor of Arabic at King Abdul Aziz University, agrees with Al-Qarni that Islam does not prohibit women from driving. �But the problem is that our society is not ready for women driving yet,� she said. Even though she can drive abroad, she does not think that the social environment in the Kingdom is suitable for women driving. �There are also problems such as lack of parking facilities, bad road conditions and reckless driving,� she added." http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=37 834&d=11&m=1&y=2004 Allah knows best Edited by Andalus |
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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
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Andalus
Moderator Group Joined: 12 October 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1187 |
Posted: 29 September 2007 at 5:09am | ||||
neither could I, as a male, or my wife. That fatwa was an extreme position by Saudi clerics that has subtones of "male control" in the name of faith written all over it. As a man, I do not want a helpless automaton to mother my children. Children should be raised by the best.
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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
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Alwardah
Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2005 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 980 |
Posted: 29 September 2007 at 6:18am | ||||
Sister Angela, I just want you to know that I am not being sarcastic when I say that you have better knowledge about Islam in some aspects than me. I have always found throughout my time in this forum the deep insight you and Sister Angel have not only about Islam but other religions and ideologies as well. I am always amazed by the way you and Angel stand up for Islam despite being non-Muslims. In a few threads I have also posted to that effect, expressing my feelings. Regarding the Hadith in question. I cannot add much except that it was revealed in Al-Madinah, when Islam was at its peak and at a time when both men and women lowered their gazes. Personally I would say this Hadith applies more today than at the time it was revealed as our level of Iman is no where near the level of Iman of the early Muslims. Peace |
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�Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155) |
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Alwardah
Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2005 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 980 |
Posted: 29 September 2007 at 6:29am | ||||
As salamu Alaikum Thanks for informing me that those of us who oppose such ideas are "controled children who do cannot make any decisions". I wonder how the women at the time of the Prophet (sallallahu alayhi wa Sallam) felt when these statements were made...... maybe they did not have a mind of their own - as I don't see any Hadith opposing such views by anyone even, the wives of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alayhi wa Sallam) I would appreciate some Hadith even weak ones to change my views and opinions. I need help -real help to become a real woman- as I am a "helpless automaton" in a woman's body because I of my belief. Peace Edited by Alwardah |
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�Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155) |
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Andalus
Moderator Group Joined: 12 October 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1187 |
Posted: 29 September 2007 at 11:58am | ||||
supposition. the fatwa, nor my opinion, does not conflict with what the Sahaba practiced or how the wives felt. That is a strawman. The issue is traveling distance, not the medium for traveling. The problem that the Saudi clerics have with the medium is cultural (though they hide behind deen), not religous. The notion that it (the driving) could lead to some other things that "might" be bad is poor logic and pure rubbish. They take that principle to extremes that suit them. Lets destroy grapes and wipe them out..why not? If we follow the poor reasoning in the fatwa, then we should destroy grapes, because someone might make wine.
I would appreciate some hadith, even weak hadith, that tell us a women is not allowed to use some medium, other than their own two feet, to get from point A to point B. I find it humerous that Saudi clerics are the first to cry foul at the use of "reasoning" in the case of ijtihad, and here they are, when it is convenient, using "reasoning" to make the outlandish claim that it is impermissible for women to drive. Talk about stretching the evidence to fit a conclusion. The problem with these bin baaz and Co fatwas, is that they are thrown around like they are mainstream, sunni ideals, and when non-believers read them, they think that the overly rigid life style they proclaim is standard for everyone, scaring them away from Islam. I wish their Q and A site had a clause with "wahabi" or "neosalafi" next to it, or at least be intellectually honest and provide the views from the establshed madhabs.....enough of the other opinions so that Muslims living in the west do not feel they have to make their home like the Kingdom, which is not a "Islamic" paradise. I wonder when these same clerics will issue fatwas about their masters who pay their salaries and fund their dawah and also engage in horse racing, and the wasting of money on "haram" lifestyles. It is like the house is on fire and they want to complain about the TV channel. I cannot help you Sr. It is up to you to choose the way you practice your faith. My point is not to change you, I do not engage in sophistry. My point is that your sources are not mainstream, and do not reflect mainstream scholarship, but represent a model used in the Kingdom. This is what I wanted to clarify for the non-believers who come here to learn about Islam. If you feel your life is great, then al hamdullilah. For a woman who wants to drive for the right reasons, al hamdullilah, there is nothing in the deen that states she cannot. Assalam aleikum Edited by Andalus |
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A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.pt-go.com/ |
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Alwardah
Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2005 Location: South Africa Status: Offline Points: 980 |
Posted: 29 September 2007 at 2:13pm | ||||
As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu Brother Andalus Well there are many incidents in the history books that point to the fact that women used camels and donkeys from point A to B but the animal was lead by a male. I am sure you must have read those stories too. I get your point loud and clear. I am not sure whether i should post this here or under "Comments" To date I have not found anything on the site or by these clerics that contradict with the Shariah. But what do I know, I am only touching the surface in my search of knowledge, you and the others are the experts. As a moderator please can you clarify for me the following points: 1. Is Islamicity Forum an Islamic site reserved for a special group of muslims. 2. Are the views of only particular scholars accepted 3. Are the Fatawas from only particular sites accepted. I need this information to decide whether to continue my membership on this forum. You know what is ironical last year about this time � actually during the first few days of Ramadan, I left a Yahoo egroup because the moderator kept rejecting the Fatawa I post from Sunnipath and Islam Online but the last straw was when she sent me very derogatory articles on some of these scholars whose Fatawa I used to submit. A year later I am facing the same decision because of similar reasons but this time it is the other way round. I take Fatawa and knowledge from many websites. I don�t agree with some and agree with some. However I will not accept disrespect to any scholar and loathe being the cause of it. I feel that when we criticise a scholar or cleric as you call them, who quotes from the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah then we are indirectly or maybe be directly criticising the noble teachings of the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam). I will have no part in this. Thanks! May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala forgive us from our ignorance. Ameen! You are correct where I get my information and how I chose to live it, is my choice. I am sure I will find a forum that accepts both views - those presented by the Wahabi Clerics and non-Wahabi clerics. I regard both as Sunni scholars and there is lot to learn from both sides. Till I get a response and decide what to do, I will continue posting in the Kiddies Corner � Let�s try, Daily Hadith and Ayat etc. Wa Alaikum Salam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu Edited by Alwardah |
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�Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An�am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155) |
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