Is the Bible Still the Word of God?

Shibboleth wrote: [COLOR="#000000" face="Georgia"]Husan, Ali and others explain this fact.....................39: 1

So you realize this as a fact.(AlHamduillah)
Baset - Hussari - Minshawi
Tanzeelu alkitabi mina Allahi alAAazeezi alhakeemi

Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Allah's attributes:Exalted in Power and Might] [Allah's attributes:Wise] [Qur'an:revelation of]

Bismillah Ar Rahman Ar Rahim
39:1 (Y. Ali) The revelation of this Book is from Allah, the Exalted in Power, full of Wisdom.


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إِنَّا أَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ فَاعْبُدِ اللَّهَ مُخْلِصًا لَّهُ الدِّينَ (39:2)
Baset - Hussari - Minshawi
Inna anzalna ilayka alkitaba bialhaqqi faoAAbudi Allaha mukhlisan lahu alddeena

Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Qur'an:revelation of] [Qur'an:the Truth] [Sincerity]


39:2 (Y. Ali) Verily it is We Who have revealed the Book to thee in Truth: so serve Allah, offering Him sincere devotion.


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أَلَا لِلَّهِ الدِّينُ الْخَالِصُ وَالَّذِينَ اتَّخَذُوا مِن دُونِهِ أَوْلِيَاء مَا نَعْبُدُهُمْ إِلَّا لِيُقَرِّبُونَا إِلَى اللَّهِ زُلْفَى إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَحْكُمُ بَيْنَهُمْ فِي مَا هُمْ فِيهِ يَخْتَلِفُونَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَا يَهْدِي مَنْ هُوَ كَاذِبٌ كَفَّارٌ (39:3)
Baset - Hussari - Minshawi
Ala lillahi alddeenu alkhalisu waallatheena ittakhathoo min doonihi awliyaa ma naAAbuduhum illa liyuqarriboona ila Allahi zulfa inna Allaha yahkumu baynahum fee ma hum feehi yakhtalifoona inna Allaha la yahdee man huwa kathibun kaffarun

Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Allah:nearness to Him] [Sincerity]


39:3 (Y. Ali) Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah." Truly Allah will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful.


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لَوْ أَرَادَ اللَّهُ أَنْ يَتَّخِذَ وَلَدًا لَّاصْطَفَى مِمَّا يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَاء سُبْحَانَهُ هُوَ اللَّهُ الْوَاحِدُ الْقَهَّارُ (39:4)
Baset - Hussari - Minshawi
Law arada Allahu an yattakhitha waladan laistafa mimma yakhluqu ma yashao subhanahu huwa Allahu alwahidu alqahharu

Topics discussed in this Verse:
[Allah:Glory be to Him] [Allah:has no son] [Allah's attributes:Irresistible] [Allah's attributes:One God]


39:4 (Y. Ali) Had Allah wished to take to Himself a son, He could have chosen whom He pleased out of those whom He doth create: but Glory be to Him! (He is above such things.) He is Allah, the One, the Irresistible.


Simply the Qur'an confirms only I repeat only the truths about the (Ingel and Torah)nothing else. This topic discussion has been going on and on and on and on and even reposted everytime we get new members.(InshAllah) next topic: What truths if any are left in the Bible that the Qur'an confirms? [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="middle" /> P.S To all non-Muslim members when you bring up "the Qur'an confirms the Ingel and Torah" keep in mind that it is confirming the message of said Books(The original True Message)that the Prophets(As) of Allah SWT was sent to deliver.

Edited by Akhe Abdullah - 10 September 2009 at 6:06am

Shibbo is doing what "believer" his previous manifestation use to do. Come up with a plan, then ask a question, misquote translation, and give his own comments, answer and final verdict about it. He does it all by himself and thinks we are with him. I say, get a life Shibbo, you cannot get anywhere but a ditch dodging the truth, and glorifying yourself by posing whatever you come up with is right, yeah right! You are only fooling yourself.

Meditations wrote: Shibboleth wrote: If the Quran is CONFIRMATION of all Previous Revelations, then these Revelations could not have been corrupted prior to or in the days of Muhammad otherwise this verse - like many others like it - would make no sense and would render it blasphemous. Agree or Disagree? Of course disagree As mentioned in another post your If / then statement uses a very wrong analogy , which is seems you keep on building upon it's logic Muslims believe in these Prophets , that they existed , that they were Prophets sent by God , and they were sent with these revelations This is no sense implies that these revelations were not corrupted If I trust that someone gave you a letter , this by no means implies that I believe this letter wouldn't have been altered by someone else later on Shibboleth wrote: Why didn't ancient Muslims find some of these "corrupt" manuscripts and save them? I'm not sure why you say the same things in different posts but anyways , as mentioned in another post For various reasons some of it 1: There's no point in doing this , the existence of the various 'versions' of the old and new testament is enough proof 2: Even if these manuscripts existed and were available to them , it would be of no use , since the revelation of the Qur'an becomes the new law for believers Shibboleth wrote: All these links, statements and quotes don't mean a thing without proof of the version that's been "un-corrupted" wouldn't you agree. Now that's PROOF of course if there is one. BUT LET ME SAVE YOU THE TROUBLE, IT ISN'T, SORRY! IT WOULD HAVE TO BE OLDER THEN DIRT It's funny, because the analogy you're trying to use , is against your own theory The fact that there's not a single version of the bible/old testament that has a direct link to Jesus / Moses ( PBUT ) ( you mentioned before that the earliest is at least 200-300 years after the times of Jesus ( PBUH ) The fact that there're so many versions of the bible/old testament that are different , contradicting each other at times Makes us sure that what we have today, year 2009 is not what was revealed to Jesus or Moses ( PBUT ) Please let us know if you have any further questions Regards

Edited by Moses - 12 September 2009 at 9:01am

 

Hi,

Although you are kind, I did not find my answers.

If the Bible was changed or corrupted in the time of Quran, why the Quran talks about that and ask the prophet to tell that for his people,

See:

 

 

He said: O Moses! I have preferred thee above mankind by My messages and by My speaking (unto thee). So hold that which I have given thee, and be among the thankful. (144) And We wrote for him, upon the tablets, the lesson to be drawn from all things and the explanation of all things, then (bade him): Hold it fast; and command thy people (saying to the Muhammad-s): Take the better therein. I shall show thee the abode of evil-livers. (145) I shall turn away from My revelations those who magnify themselves wrongfully in the earth, and if they see each token believe it not, and if they see the way of righteousness choose it nor for (their) way, and if they see the way of error choose if for (their) way. That is because they deny Our revelations and are used to disregard them. (146)

 

 

 

If we want do not complicate anything we should accept that "All things� means all things!

And, taking the better needs to be something not better but "there is something" any way. Isn�t it?!

and you tell us that Bible is changed, and by this, as if you are about erasing the message of these verses from your mind and Muslim people`s mind! If disagree, tell me how you use this verses and what is the reason of Quran to talk about these things?!What is the message of these words for you? Knowing that there was something in thousands years ago and u cannot know what that was?! What is the message of the first verses of Al-Baqara , when says :

الٓمٓ (١) ذَٲلِكَ ٱلۡڪِتَـٰبُ لَا رَيۡبَ‌ۛ فِيهِ‌ۛ هُدً۬ى لِّلۡمُتَّقِينَ (٢) ٱلَّذِينَ يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِٱلۡغَيۡبِ وَيُقِيمُونَ ٱلصَّلَوٰةَ وَمِمَّا رَزَقۡنَـٰهُمۡ يُنفِقُونَ (٣) وَٱلَّذِينَ يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِمَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيۡكَ وَمَآ أُنزِلَ مِن قَبۡلِكَ وَبِٱلۡأَخِرَةِ هُمۡ يُوقِنُونَ (٤)

Alif. Lam. Mim. (1) This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil). (2) Who believe in the Unseen, and establish worship, and spend of that We have bestowed upon them; (3) And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee, and are certain of the Hereafter. (4)

 

Is she talking about believed only in that which revealed unto Muhammad? Or both, in that which revealed unto Muhammad and that which revealed before him? As you see, Quran will not lead everyone who does not really believe in that which revealed before Muhammad. Then if there is not any unchanged Bible or Torah, how we can believe in them?!!! Believe in something that is not in our hands?!!! Believe in books that do not exist?!!!  

 

On the other hand , isn`t it the same that you tell: �explains how the Qur'an is to prevail previous scriptures�

 

مُصَدِّقً۬ا لِّمَا بَيۡنَ يَدَيۡهِ مِنَ ٱلۡڪِتَـٰبِ وَمُهَيۡمِنًا عَلَيۡهِ‌ۖ

 

Puting the Quran in a battle against other scriptures, or knowing the harmony?

Is the phrase:� Mohaimen Alaihe� (guardian over it) in the meaning of something �better�? Or this is something more powerful to be Guardian of the others? You cannot answer: both!  Because one of them is the meaning of word �Guardian� means something which support and protect from damages, isn`t it? In these verses Quran is talking about herself who confirmed the previous scriptures and Also, Protect them from changes and damages.

Is it complexity of my explanation?!!  Or this is only the meaning of the words of Quran?

 
 

And thanks for your advice, I read all of the Quran previously and use to read it nearly every day at present. And I did not find any better explanation to Quran, unless the holy Bible.

You cannot find even one verse in Quran that says Bible is changed, but every day I hear from Muslims that Bible is changed and we cannot trust on this book. Why?!! This is not for any reason except, trust in something exclude the words of God; believe in someone who is not the Creator, but a creature just like us. As Quran says everybody who does not believe in the book of Moses will be in the hell:

أَفَمَن كَانَ عَلَىٰ بَيِّنَةٍ۬ مِّن رَّبِّهِۦ وَيَتۡلُوهُ شَاهِدٌ۬ مِّنۡهُ وَمِن قَبۡلِهِۦ كِتَـٰبُ مُوسَىٰٓ إِمَامً۬ا وَرَحۡمَةً‌ۚ أُوْلَـٰٓٮِٕكَ يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِهِۦ‌ۚ وَمَن يَكۡفُرۡ بِهِۦ مِنَ ٱلۡأَحۡزَابِ فَٱلنَّارُ مَوۡعِدُهُ ۥ‌ۚ فَلَا تَكُ فِى مِرۡيَةٍ۬ مِّنۡهُ‌ۚ إِنَّهُ ٱلۡحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكَ وَلَـٰكِنَّ أَڪۡثَرَ ٱلنَّاسِ لَا يُؤۡمِنُونَ (١٧

.....and before it was the Book of Moses, an example and a mercy? Such believe therein, and whoso disbelieveth therein of the clans, the Fire is his appointed place. So be not thou in doubt concerning it. Lo! it is the Truth from thy Lord; but most of mankind believe not. (17

 

And in the next example:

هُوَ ٱلَّذِىٓ أَرۡسَلَ رَسُولَهُ ۥ بِٱلۡهُدَىٰ وَدِينِ ٱلۡحَقِّ لِيُظۡهِرَهُ ۥ عَلَى ٱلدِّينِ كُلِّهِۦ‌ۚ وَكَفَىٰ بِٱللَّهِ شَهِيدً۬ا (٢٨)

He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion. And Allah sufficeth as a Witness. (28)

This is talking about God`s will to prevail over all religion, may we say prevail the religion Islam (as the strategy or methods of Muhammad at the first years of Islam) to other fake religions which were in that time. But is not talking about prevail of Quran on Bible !!!!!

 

You wrote: �Qur'an was sent as the final guidance, to prevail what was sent with previous Prophets�

As your opinion, I respect that, but it�s not from Quran, only understanding from some other books.

Because Quran says had been sent for confirmation what was sent with previous Prophets, as you read it in the previous lines upward, not to prevail!

 

When I am talking about the Bible, I am talking about a book which included Old and new testaments and some letters which all of them were written by the apostles of Jesus Christ:

The New Testament

Autographs

45- 95 A.D. The New Testament was written in Greek. The Pauline Epistles, the Gospel of Mark, the Gospel of Luke, and the book of Acts are all dated from 45-63 A.D. The Gospel of John and the Revelation may have been written as late as 95 A.D.

Manuscripts

There are over 5,600 early Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament that are still in existence. The oldest manuscripts were written on papyrus and the later manuscripts were written on leather called parchment.

�         125 A.D. The New Testament manuscript which dates most closely to the original autograph was copied around 125 A.D, within 35 years of the original. It is designated "p 52" and contains a small portion of John 18. (The "p" stands for papyrus.)

�         200 A.D. Bodmer p 66 a papyrus manuscript which contains a large part of the Gospel of John.

�         200 A.D. Chester Beatty Biblical papyrus p 46 contains the Pauline Epistles and Hebrews.

�         225 A.D. Bodmer Papyrus p 75 contains the Gospels of Luke and John.

�         250-300 A.D. Chester Beatty Biblical papyrus p 45 contains portions of the four Gospels and Acts.

�         350 A.D. Codex Sinaiticus contains the entire New Testament and almost the entire Old Testament in Greek. It was discovered by a German scholar Tisendorf in 1856 at an Orthodox monastery at Mt. Sinai.

�         350 A.D. Codex Vaticanus: {B} is an almost complete New Testament. It was cataloged as being in the Vatican Library since 1475

�        How was the New Testament canon determined?

�         The Early church had three criteria for determining what books were to be included or excluded from the Canon of the New Testament.

�         First, the books must have apostolic authority-- that is, they must have been written either by the apostles themselves, who were eyewitnesses to what they wrote about, or by associates of the apostles.

�         Second, there was the criterion of conformity to what was called the "rule of faith." In other words, was the document congruent with the basic Christian tradition that the church recognized as normative.

�         Third, there was the criterion of whether a document had enjoyed continuous acceptance and usage by the church at large.

�         The gospel of Thomas is not included in the Canon of the New Testament for the following reasons.

�         The gospel of Thomas fails the test of Apostolic authority. None of the early church fathers from Clement to Irenaeus ever quoted from the gospel of Thomas. This indicates that they either did not know of it or that they rejected it as spurious. In either case, the early church fathers fail to support the gospel of Thomas' claim to have been written by the apostle. It was believed to by written around 140 A.D. There is no evidence to support its purported claim to be written by the Apostle Thomas himself.

�         The gospel of Thomas fails to conform to the rule of faith. It purports to contain 114 "secret sayings" of Jesus. Some of these are very similar to the sayings of Jesus recorded in the Four Gospels. For example the gospel of Thomas quotes Jesus as saying, "A city built on a high hill cannot be hidden." This reads the same as Matthew's Gospel except that high is added. But Thomas claims that Jesus said, "Split wood; I am there. Lift up a stone, and you will find me there." That concept is pantheistic. Thomas ends with the following saying that denies women salvation unless they are some how changed into being a man. "Let Mary go away from us, because women are not worthy of life." Jesus is quoted as saying, "Lo, I shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit, resembling you males. For every woman who makes herself male will enter into the kingdom of heaven."

�         The gospel of Thomas fails the test of continuous usage and acceptance. The lack of manuscript evidence plus the failure of the early church fathers to quote from it or recognize it shows that it was not used or accepted in the early Church. Only two manuscripts are known of this "gospel." Until 1945 only a single fifth-century copy translation in Coptic had been found. Then in 1945 a Greek manuscript of the Gospel of Thomas was found at Nag Hammadi in Egypt. This compares very poorly to the thousands of manuscripts that authenticate the Four Gospels.

�          

 

If you want know better about that continue by refer to this address:

 

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/bibleorigin.html

 

but this Book is the same that most of Christians believes that and are preaching and teaching that at present. When Quran was revealed , there were thousands of this book in all of the world and as Quran says : in their hands.

Then if Quran confirm the Bible, definitely she does not talking about an invisible book! God is wise enough to find out what is talking about!

appologize and happy for my mistake and there are many truth seekers here, thanks to God for all of you

Edited by Moses - 13 September 2009 at 5:50am