You know what bugs me about God?

Larry wrote: "That's why I listed the references." No, you didn't list "references, you listed a batch of quotes that you have no support for. Your "conspiracy" nonsense about the "western world" is getting ridiculous. And your inability to address my previous post is understandable, you prefer non-supported "facts" to reasoned argument. I see no reason to continue this particular thread, it's pointless at this time. We'll have to agree to disagree.

I know your disease that Allah told us you read what you want to read?

 The number at the end of each verse is from your book that anyone can see ...

You can't have your way with selective blindness!
I thought I knew how to handle mules

Yes we will agree to disagree but don't tell me the facts provided from your book are not facts! Just say that is fiction and case settled!


Edited by Sign*Reader - 30 July 2010 at 12:53am

Larry wrote: I don't know why you even replied to my post...

Cuz your nonsensical preaching here has to be rebutted for  the posterity ...

Larry wrote: ...and I will no longer respond to it...

THANK YOU ALLAH but whenever you do, follow the structure of the forum and go point by point using the quote button instead of muddling things up with long screeds of ignorance!
Does someone need to teach you how the buttons on top right work?


Edited by Sign*Reader - 30 July 2010 at 12:37am

Larry wrote:    Why would I need a "detailed Bio of Muhammad" to understand the Qur'an? Why would the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt and the Pharaoh's pursuit of them need to be written more than once in the Qur'an?

You are so dense! Our God told us try to be nice with gentiles that the Jews normally don't treat you that way!
You should ask if you have Jewish friends why do they ask so many questions? Then you will find out why the story got mentioned twice! It is an inane question anyways!
The same question why Jesus Gospel has so many versions Mathew, John, Luke and Mark?
Not that it is the whole truth, I may warn you! Have you ever sat down and compared the genealogies mentioned there and then tell that your god had Alzheimer like me! LOL

 

Larry wrote: "In "Mary" the angel Gabriel announces the "gift of a holy son." Is Jesus "holy" to Muslims?"    You reply: "In general definition Allah's prophet are called holy as long as they were so contacted by God not self-styled."    But in Surah 19: Mary, Jesus is not a "self-styled" prophet but actually the son of Mary created by the will of Allah. By the way, this is how Christianity believes Jesus was born too. And no prophet in the Old or New Testament, other than Jesus, is named as "holy". That is a designation reserved for God Himself.

To us all prophets are holy whether they are mentioned as such in OT  or not...OT is not a specification for us, it can be used as a reference only case by case basis if need be for taking purposes. If it couldn't be useful for the recipients why would it benefit this late in game. Period

   

Surah 19: Mary    20. She (Mary) said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, am I not unchaste?"    21. He (Gabriel) said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith; that is easy for Me, and (We wish) to appoint him as a sign unto men and a Mercy from Us."    22. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place." This isn't a "general definition" of a prophet. Jesus was conceived from Allah's "wish" and the virgin Mary. If Allah is not Jesus's father then who is?

You must be kidding! You would think Sir Ian Wilmut and Keith Campbell would be Dolly's literal fathers! LOL
Let's go back who was Adam's father then? He was made from pile of dirt and God breathed life into it...So God was his father too genetically, physically ...That tells me your God is made like a man with bone covered with flesh and blood running in his veins!

   

You say: "As I told you it is real time communication from God to the man on the ground while he is handling the world affairs and there is a new republics work on hand. How do you expect that be a linear system?"    You mean that Muhammad was so busy that his communications directly from God take second place, and in non-linear form, while he deals with "world affairs" and "republic work?"

When you have too many irons in the fire! Just not making sermons only! He had to his house community and state under divine edicts on daily , weekly montly and yearly schedule! Read what Boswell Smith wrote:
He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope's
pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a
standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without
a fixed revenue. If ever any man had the right to say that he
ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammad, for he had all the
power without its instruments and without its supports.
You wouldn't know where church and state is separated and when it was not as in medieval Europe it was royal mess and dark ages!

   

You say: "You can prefer what you want, Qur'an is not a book of history, personalities, poetry or songs and I am not sure what logic you are talking about."    Well, the Bible IS a book of history, personalities, poetry and songs. And also, the Bible is in linear form, that is to say in a logical sequence from the earliest chapters to the last. It has coherence and beauty of language, while at the same time it provides a detailed and remarkably true history of early Judaism and God's relationship with His "chosen people." If a book is divinely inspired it should reflect on the period and characters presented with realism and should be done in a linear, logical progression from first to last. It should also present the people that it represents and their lives, which include history, poetry and songs, etc. It is not a stale recital of rules and regulations.

You still haven't come up with the answer who was Juda in Judaism and if they were God's chosen shouldn't the name of the religion be Godism or something on that order! Just like you named your religion on Christ the man, that is not God's original I may add, you made Christ as God and so now God's name Christ See what you ahve done! just as Juda's name is a man's name right? or Juda God's middle name?


  

You say that the Qur'an, "only mentions the events from Old Testament those for the benefit of Jews who would try to test the veracity the revelation and used to get the surprise by getting the correct versions than their own..."    You don't even mention the New Testament passages used in the Qur'an and say that the only reason that the Old Testament is used is "for the benefit of Jews" who evidently are surprised because Muhammad quotes the Old Testament of the Jews better than the Jews did to start with? I'm not sure I understand because the Old Testament was written over a thousand years earlier than the start of Islam. Neat trick.

OT was written and rewritten and then comes Midrash, Mishnas and Talmud after all the wanderings, the destruction of their habitations and Diasporas you still think God telling the real stuff about them in Quran is something hard to understand...I say it is understandable here when the legal system permits to take a the Fifth and obfuscate the evidence in broad day light the POTUSs lie through their teeth to make wars and let corporations and banksters steal that you accept that as Gospel truths...There is something terribly wrong, I think it is what goes in your stomachs i.e., the harram(un-blessed) food and money that effects the way you guys take the truth and mix it with flowery fiction and sell it for some shekels and not fearing that God is just!

 

You say that it "may be the Anglophiles under Brits rule preferred that kind of English." (17th century). The English that you call "classical English" is not classical at all, it is simply 17th century English colloquial speech. It seems odd to me that a scholar like Yusuf Ali would not choose to translate the Qur'an using a type of speech that was no longer spoken or written in that form. Maybe he just liked the style of the Old and New Testaments?

I would listen to you if you were as qualified as Yusuf Ali and at par with his intellect or much less even close to one of his pupils! You can't dim the sun with a flash light besides you are first smart aleck American picking on the translation of world-wide repute...What would know about English language being a history major from community colleges in the inland empire!
YusuAli went to top notch Universities of the Britain and was called to bar at The Honourable Society of Lincoln's Inn when probably your ancestors were picking the fields somewhere in California or about!...The common sense demands that you criticize where your opinion is taken seriously... Gibbs had doubts about your educational background and you had to say where were you schooled at cuz of your poor language skills shown here!
And now to top that you have nerve to opine on Yusuf Ali's language!

   

You say "The Islam was Adam's religion.."    So God waited til the 7th century A.D. to reveal "Adam's religion" to the world? Adam is the first person mentioned in the Book of Genesis of the Torah. But Islam claims that "their" version is the latest and best. Sounds like a rip-off of Jewish scripture to me.

When Muslims had the line to the BOSS, it all the info cutting out the Riff Raff...Muhammad(s) had to tell Jews and Christians to fix the errors in their flowery stories if they want to get to heaven...THE RIP OFF IS THE WESTERN TRAIT IN RELIGION ...THINK HARD JEWS SAY NO TO JESUS AND SPIT ON YOU CHRISTIANS ...BUT WITHOUT THEM YOU CAN NOT COBBLE A DOGMA...MUSLIMS DON'T NEED THEM OR YOU ...YOU GO TO GREEK, ARAMAIC AND ALL OTHER MUMBO JUMBO... BUT EVERY MUSLIM HAVE THE ORIGINAL AND READ IN ORIGINAL BY HEART AND HAVE THE HOUSES OF ALLAH IN ORIGINAL AND WHOLE NINE YARD EVEN WITH THE OCCUPATION BY WEST'S COLONIZERS! DO YOU GET IT NOW OR IT IS THE STUBBORNNESS THAT IS YOUR PERSONALITY TRAIT ARE YOU A TAURUS BULL BY ANY CHANCE? DID YOU EVER SEE THE SCENES AT MAKKAH ONLINE AS YOU CAN'T GO THERE! YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING RELATING TO JESUS!
THE JEWS MADE TO FIGHT AMONG YOURSELF TO GET THEIR HAND ON THE LAND WHERE JESUS ROAMED! CAN YOU GO AND PREACH YOUR DOGMA IN ISRAEL? I BET YOU WILL GET SPAT UPON
 

Also, the "Juda" in Juda-ism is; "the monotheistic religion of the Jews , based on the precepts of the Old Testament and the teaching and commentaries of the rabbis as found chiefly in the Talmud." (Random House Collegiate Dictionary)

Don't TELL ME what the dictionary says...you tell what do know... Is GOD a race OWNED or God has a religion that is universal...You are so lost and confused MY DEAR LARRY, GIBBS IS A JEW BUT HE HAS NO RELIGION. HE IS AN ATHEIST.. WHAT DOES IT TELL YOU...RELIGION IS NOT BOOK OF TALMUD TORAH...The Muslims by having Quran collecting dust on shelves has no value unless they live it! That is what they have done a few times and gotten slaughters by Mongols and then by the west in last century!

   

You said: It was "Jesus vs the Jews and he was made to look as crucified that Allah had the power to do and take him away for the next tour."    Oh, I see, it was just a mass-hallucination brought about by Allah so that he could "rescue" Jesus and no one would know the difference.    What nonsense!

Well you can say that a thousand times but that is the fact...You call it hallucination if God will raise the dead from the dust or people who were cremated nothingness all the billions upon billions; Why can't He throw a cloud of acid cocaine combo over the blood thirty mob?
How people who were not free could know the difference! Look at the the recent news!
Ottawa G20/G8 summit, the government of Canada spent a billion dollars to let the mob run amok, let them burn squad cars and loot, not put the fires out to distract as if they were doing great...And meeting went on as planned to enslave with World government...And nothing was reported what went behind the scenes anywhere accept some alternative media reported...In chaos everything happens but with close minds only road open is road to serfdom of the powerful elite; I don't want to go on to a tangent!
 IMO the Christians have only one role to play that is work as pawns of the Jewish elite, take their share of the mammon system either working in capitalism or Marxism in an alternating fashion! Some time Fascism will raise the ugly head too! The God's work is not their cup of tea!

  

You said: "If Isaiah 53 was true then the Jews must accept that, otherwise it is a no-go."    The Jews believe that the Messiah is still to come, so they don't see this prophecy as fulfilled because to them Jesus was a fraud. Also the Jews are waiting for the Messiah that will come in power and rescue the Jews from all their enemies. There are two prphecies concerning the Messiah, Christians believe that Jesus came, suffered and died, then resurrected and will return for the second time as the "Prince of Peace" whose "name will be wonderful and of His kingdom there will be no end" and as the judge of mankind at the end of the world. So it doesn't make Isaiah 53 a "no-go" because the Jews don't think it relates to the Messiah. But to Christians it is a powerful prophecy that was fulfilled in totality by Jesus Christ on earth.

Unless this is completely adjudicated as you blathered by the Jews then burden is on them not us Muslims...the chances of which are remote cuz the Christians have lost the power base that they have used against the Jews to proselytize them! They say it is about the Israelite and they have gotten it set in Palestine!
The verse 10 cannot be describing Jesus. The verse states:

he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days

This description, is inconsistent with the short, childless life of Jesus.

  

You said: " the Christianity of Paul was a religion sold to Europeans in the early time frame and it rode the roads to the outside world with a racist mind set vs Islam..."    I'm not sure how it could be a "racist mind set vs Islam" when Islam was still 600 years into the future during Paul's time and ministry.

I am saying after Islam was presented to Heraclius the court bishops threatened him not accept that was Arabs' religion the non Europeans!

 

You said: "Jesus's conception was a Parthenogenesis."     That is the development of an ova without fertilization.    Well, whatever it was Allah said "that is easy for Me, and (We wish) to appoint him as a sign unto men and a Mercy from Us." So I guess Allah did not create Jesus inside the body of an unmarried Jewish girl as it says in the Qur'an? Was Muhammad born by "Parthenogenesis" as a "holy son"?

I was just alluding if the scientist today can accomplish that it should be understandable when God wants  some thing like that it is not outside the range of genetic work to make fetus! So far Muhammad was concern Allah zapped his father after the conception to remove a possible idolater dad from the scene! That should tell you Allah 's plans work in mysterious ways!
But then Isaiah 10 applies more on Muhammad he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days

You base your answers on whatever you feel is right to answer the question in lieu of answering the question with how it is described in the Qur'an.

That is how your own religion was cobbled together wasn't it? I am not saying anything that is contradictory to Quraan!
 

I still am confused that God waited til the 7th century A.D. to give Muhammad the Qur'an, using Jewish sources that were over 600 years before his time.

Cuz there was super powers building up and God let the Persian and Roman settle some scores to their hearts desire before they will be again offered from a different line of the Semitic line the truth and nothing but the truth...Timings is God's not anyone else's.
The God's fundamentals are universal and he can refer to his data base no matter how old...Larrys of the world are not going to have a say in that!
You need to be free from the Jewish ownership of the Isaiah first then talk!

  

By the way, the earliest known copy of Isaiah was written in the second century B.C. which is at least 100 years before the birth of Jesus Christ. It was the only COMPLETE chapter from the Hebrew Bible that was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls. It is housed in the "Shrine of the Book" in Jerusalem.

Once you have the Jews accept it as you  guys wont to interpret then we will talk till then Bye, Bye....  Don't catch on straws puhleeease

Unedited.......


Edited by Sign*Reader - 29 July 2010 at 12:59pm

Larry wrote:    You are the one that brought these "quotes" up, it isn't up to me to do your research for you. If you are going to quote things you really should know what you are quoting and where it is from. It doesn't say a lot for your intelligence to post things that you know nothing about. But when has that ever stopped you before?

You asked that where were they from? didn't you muddleheaded? That is why I listed the references...Don't argue about some thing that you are not knowledgeable enough and continue wasting our time and just live with the facts of the monstrosity of your man made scriptures! NO one in his right mind can see God almighty doing that!
That why there are so many isms and atheism in the western world cuz of your out of kilter book not due to ours! And that is a fact you can't hide from
Just remember how many hapless Jews have you Christan bigots have killed in the modern times.... I don't ask about Muslims that now both have joined forces!
Any wonder the same kind of people brought the Bolshevism who slaughtered millions more in Russia and China!


Edited by Sign*Reader - 28 July 2010 at 12:48pm