S. Korean hostages beaten for Christ

Tom123 wrote:     If you can provide me any evidence whatsoever that these people were there bribing anyone or serving US forces or defending or supporting the 'war on terror' please show it to me.

Im saying  EVEN IF they were not doing anything bad except trying to convert people, even then that would be a great help to the occupation forces because the occupation forces are "Christian". So the fact is they were helping the occupation one way or another.

So... if their goal was just to spread Christianity, they could have done so in their own country where 70% are none-Christians. Why fly all the way to Afghanistan in the middle of a war? Just to convert people? I dont think so, since they still had a lot of converting to do in their own country and then their neighbouring countries and also many other countries that are not in the middle of a war between Muslims and Christians, and many countries where people are suffering from poverty more so than in Afghanistan.

Hence, even if we assume that they were just trying to convert people, they were still helping the occupation, and it seems that was their goal or else they would have tried to convert the remaining 70% of their own people instead.

 

Edited by Sawtul Khilafah

Tom123 wrote: Was that supposed to be funny?    These South Koreans were serving Afghan people, not US soldiers. There is no proof they were aiding the occupiers or even the Afghan government.

Sign*Reader wrote: Yes it is funny that a bible thumper like you and your ilk who have  caused so much misery in that part of the world and still continue to believe that they are serving people acting as morons.

   What harm have I caused in Afghanistan? You don't know anything about me.
   I was against the war in Afghanistan and Iraq, I have spoken out against them, I have helped organize people to attend peace rallies and information sessions about the war crimes carried out by the Americans and their allies (including Canada). I have had my phones tapped for helping organize a letter writing campaign against the deportation of a man from our city to Syria where he would have been tortured. I've set up petitions to bring attention to the massacre of Muslims at Andijan, Uzbekistan and had people sign and write to Ottawa asking that our government stop supporting Karimov.
 
   So go ahead, throw your accusations and mockeries, they reflect nothing but your ignorance. You know absolutely nothing about me.

Sign*Reader wrote: What a concept to carpet bomb a country from 50000 feet and then send some naive Koreans NGOs as aid workers missionaries in disguise?

   So you think they were sent by the US Military? Are you out of your mind??? Do you think they would have been so easily captured then???
   If you have any evidence that these people were working for the occupation, prove it. Otherwise stop flinging mud.

 

Tom123 wrote: Just because Colin Powell said something, it must be true?

Sign*Reader wrote: You have no authority to challenge his justification and definition of the NGO concept cuz you are a nobody in this cyberspace as compared to him so far the subject is concerned. His former employer has continued to use NGOs as surrogates in their  worldwide operations not that this has alleviated the rampant misery they continue to cause.

   Which NGOs? Do you have any proof that these people were working for the Americans? You don't.

Tom123 wrote: Then I'm assuming you also believe there were WMDs in Iraq, eh?

Sign*Reader wrote: This is like comparing apples with oranges, you don't need to make an ass of yourself unless you would like!

   You say that I dare not challenge Powell's statements about NGOs because I'm a 'nobody' in cyberspace. Then who are you to challenge him? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Sign*Reader wrote: He lied to the world on behalf of his boss and for the money he was making and that he was some Christian

   First of all, Bush is as much a 'Christian' as the janjaweed death squads in Sudan are 'Muslim'. They aren't. Second of all, I don't dispute that Colin Powell is a liar.

Sign*Reader wrote: You need to pray for him and see he doesn't land in your hell!-

   He can only be saved from Hell if he repents for all the suffering and misery he caused through the wars he helped start and turns to  Jesus. Sure, I can pray that happens. But it's up to him to repent for his inhuman cruelties and turn to God.

  

Tom123 wrote: Do you believe that aid workers in Iraq and Afghanistan from Islamic Relief and Red Crescent are 'US lackeys' too?

Sign*Reader wrote: They are not NGOs system funded by the Uncle Sam or it's lackeys!

   Neither were the South Koreans. And remember, you said that according to Colin Powell's words, NGOs are fair game. So that means that Islamic Relief and Red Crescent are 'fair game'.

 

Tom123 wrote: What about Margaret Hassan (from CARE)? She was 'fair game' you say? Did she deserve the buller that her kidnappers shot into her head?

Sign*Reader wrote: You are showing your pathetic side by bringing in Mrs Hassan in this. How can you compare her who was an Iraqi citizen with those Korean missionaries?

   Because like them she dedicated and gave her life by serving people made victims of war.

Sign*Reader wrote: You country was partner in crime to convert Iraq into a slaughter house where the invaders are living in so called green zone so they can get their hands on what is under the slaughter house. What do you know about shame after this?

   That's why I was, am and will continue to oppose its complicity and support of US imperialism. What country do you live in, btw?

Sign*Reader wrote: No body has found out why anybody would kill Marg-- where even Zarqavi asked for her release!

   Her murder was an act of horrific savagery. No less than the murder of the South Korean aid workers. No less than the crimes of the invading occupying forces.
  

Sign*Reader wrote: As a  rule of thumb all the heaths and misery is on the invaders tab and you are a prty to it so far I am concerned. You cause the crash you pay for all !

   How am I a party to it? Because I live in Canada? Where do you live? What are you doing to oppose the injustice?

Tom123 wrote:    Your comment about these people coming to Afghanistan for hasheesh or opium is quite frankly, sickening and disgusting. You are demonizing people who went and gave their lives to serve and try to help these suffering people. Shame on you.    I will pray that God opens your eyes.    Cristo Vive!         - Tomasz

Sign*Reader wrote: When you learn the true meaning of  SHAME & PRAYER Do it for Ted Haggards and Larry Craigs and all the chld molesting priests and rather tell them Christ lives; don't need your belly aching over here you knucklehead!

   Not worth responding to.

   Cristo Vive!
       - Tomasz


Edited by Tom123

Tom123 wrote:     If you can provide me any evidence whatsoever that these people were there bribing anyone or serving US forces or defending or supporting the 'war on terror' please show it to me.

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: Im saying  EVEN IF they were not doing anything bad except trying to convert people, even then that would be a great help to the occupation forces because the occupation forces are "Christian". So the fact is they were helping the occupation one way or another.

   The occupation forces are not Christian, neither in name or in nature. America is going in as a secular Western 'democracy', not a 'Christian nation'. Yes, George Bush may claim he is a Christian. But he doesn't even claim to be there to spread Christianity, but according to him, democracy.

   True Christians are not allies of the occupation of Afghanistan. Jesus orders Christians to love our enemies, bless those who hate us, do good to those who hate us, and pray for those who mistreat us. Even if the people of Afghanistan who our countries are murdering were guilty of oppressing us (they aren't, it's the other way around) we wouldn't be able to wage war against them.

   Jesus calls on us to be peacemakers, and to go out of our way to help people who are hungry, naked, imprisoned (oppressed), homeless. The war in Afghanistan (as every other war) does the complete opposite. War turns the Kingdom of God upside down. Instead of loving their enemies, people kill them. Instead of being peacemakers, they howl for more killing. Instead of aiding the poor, they make their lives worse- because it is always the poor who suffer most because of war.

   The 'war on terror' is not supported by most Christians, but by a small and vocal minority in the States who is financially powerful and whose voices most often get heard on the airwaves. The Southern Baptist Convention and some evangelical and pentecostal churches supported the invasion of Iraq, for example, as did Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, and Anne Coulter. They got a lot of airtime, definitely.

   At the same time, the World Council of Churches, a coalition of churches with a combined membership of b/w 350 to 450 million Christians from over 100 countries condemned the war. Both the Anglican and Catholic church leaders also condemned the invasion of Iraq. Somehow their voices were barely heard, at least in the United States media... I wonder why. Maybe because they were the Christian ones.

  

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: ... if their goal was just to spread Christianity, they could have done so in their own country where 70% are none-Christians. Why fly all the way to Afghanistan in the middle of a war? Just to convert people? I dont think so, since they still had a lot of converting to do in their own country and then their neighbouring countries and also many other countries that are not in the middle of a war between Muslims and Christians, and many countries where people are suffering from poverty more so than in Afghanistan.

   First of all, they were not going to Afghanistan to convert people. And Christ did not say that Christians should focus more on some people and less on others in need. Jesus in fact said that He is present in the hungry, the imprisoned, the homeless, the poor (Matt 25:31-49). What we do to them we do to Him.

   Did you know that Islamic mission groups operate in North America and South Korea? According to your logic, should they not be in Muslim countries helping their own poor people and fighting against their unjust and corrupt rulers? Should we tell them to leave all of the non-Muslim countries and go back home and convert everyone there to Islam and solve all of their problems back home before they show their faces in non-Muslim lands? And then let's say why not kidnap a group and shoot one or two to make an example of them? And when the rest are released, how about if we mock them for not staying in their Muslim countries and demonize them for coming here and claim they're supporting Osama bin Laden- like you are claiming these South Koreans were supporting the Americans.

How well do you think that would go over on this thread? How would you respond?

   Well, this is the same kind of attitude you are showing towards the South Koreans. They went to Afghanistan to help people, and they were punished for doing so, by both the Taleban and now their own society.

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: Hence, even if we assume that they were just trying to convert people,

   Not even that is true, unless you understand doing aid work as a Christian to be 'converting people'. If that is the case, then Red Crescent and Islamic Relief are 'converting' people too.

   You could say they were being witnesses to Christianity and by their actions representing the faith, but I wouldn't use the word converting.

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: they were still helping the occupation, and it seems that was their goal

   They were not doing anything to help the occupation. Even if they were converting people, that wouldn't be of much help to the occupation since Christianity opposes war and injustice.

   You have yet to prove how helping the occupation forces was 'the goal' of the Koreans. So far I've seen a lot of speculation and not one bit of any evidence either backing up your earlier claims they were bribing people or that they went to support the American or Coalition forces.

Sawtul Khilafah wrote: or else they would have tried to convert the remaining 70% of their own people instead.

   We are called to be witnesses to Christ wherever we go. There are South Korean missionaries and Christian aid workers who are at work in South Korea as well, don't worry about that.

   Cristo Vive!

       - Tomasz

 

Tom123 the thing you must realize is regardless how you feel, majority of muslims are skeptical of missionaries regardless whether their intentions are good or otherwise. There have been "good christian folk" who has called muslims "devils and needed to be saved" kind of similar to that of the African slaves in the 1600 when they arrived on the shores of West Virginia of course not making this a race issue but to show you that good peacekeeping missionaries have been acting for God since the 1600's.

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt that let's say these individual acted out of pure good intention without the intent to convert my question is who knew they were Christian? Couldn't they keep their belief private knowing the cultural sensitivities there? Unless their beliefs were forced out by the Taliban captors, I don't see it necessary for them to reveal their beliefs.

Contrary to what you think Tom123 (although you make it sound like Islamispeace is the only muslim who speaks out against injustice) I think its wrong to kidnapp anyone unless during a time of war and the captors are part of an established army. The Taliban, in my opinion are outlaws, savages, and cowards. I however don't support them but at the same time the Korean missionaries or any missionary need to have some type of rational judgement when it comes to helping others (but the subtle message is to convert the muslim heathens).

Tom123 you must als understand that we (at least I myself) am skeptical on why you are here. I have been here as you may know, since '03 and have seen people come and go and have seen missionaries of all kinds come here and preach the "word" without even trying to get to know Islam. It is obvious that you have no intent to at least know Islam. It is obvious as it is indicated in your writings that you don't even hold Islam as an Abrahamic faith nor do you agree with its tenents because, they don't reflect yours of course the same can be said about Judaism but that is pointless now.

My main concern in this situation are the people in those regions who need adequate attention. Frankly they don't need to hear about Jesus they need to hear about whether their lights are going to come on and the other biological necessities humans need. If missionaries want to impress me have the bog wig Christians donate the millions of money they steal...err...I mean get from their churches and donate it to the U.S. military so they can speed up the process of building facilities that serve the people.

Tom123 you have indicated that your intent is indeed selfish not purely altruistic especially when you talk about where you're going after you die. I mean, how confident can you be? So you can imagine that same cockiness you have the missionaries that go to these 3rd world countries and preach to the poor. I wish I can be that confident in my destination.