The problem with SOME women

"I see, distribution of rights amongst various members of the society, to be complementary to distribution of duties amongst them." Zaman this is a communist saying here:

I don't think that contradicts everyone must have basic rights (such as, right to live and right to free speech) and and basic duties corresponding to them (duty not to kill others or use obscenity while speaking). My point was how are the other rights and duties be distributed amongst the various members of the society such that overall, equality (as I mean it to be and I have mentioned it in my last post in this thread) is maintained. There must be some division of work amongst various members of the society (depending on choice, ability and requirement), but that should not be hereditary. Hence it can't be caste-system.

Assalamu Alaikum

Brother Israfil, I was merely trying to show ZamanH that to argue his view is useless because the arguments he uses are not valid.  I honestly believe that the type of feminism which ZamanH detests so adamantly is caused in part by the backlash of male attitudes such as his.  If women were given the rights that Allah ordained to them in the Qur'an, instead of men using the customs and traditions of patriarchal societies to oppress them and deny them their rights, women would not be treated unjustly.  If women were empowered by their Allah given rights and men were to treat them in the manner in which the Prophet (pbuh) treated his wives, women would not have to resort to other means in order to feel empowered.  Allah created the division of labor between men and women for a reason, not simply because men are stronger and women are weaker.  I apologize if I offended you, Brother Israfil, or any other brother, my intention was not to offend.  I am very aware of the natural difference between and women as well as the roles which Allah has ordained for each of them.  Not only do I respect those differences, I truly believe that if Muslims were to adhere to the laws of Islam and follow the example the Prophet (pbuh), all men and women would be happy in marriage.  I don�t see men having to beg, complain or fight to get what Allah ordained for them when it comes to the marriage contract, so why should women?  I think all Muslims whether male or female need to take a serious look at this.  I don�t think we can simply state that Muslim marriage has always been this way and that it always will be.  First of all, that is obviously not true given that the Prophet (pbuh) and his wives did not live that way.  Second, that is merely a way for some men to keep their cozy status quo the way it is.  It is the traditions and customs which are not in accordance with Islam that have created this mess and it is time that Muslims do something to right this wrong.

With that say, I do not want anyone to conclude from what I have said that I fail to acknowledge that there are some true Muslim marriages in the world.  I am fully aware that there are many pious Muslims in this world.  I am merely speaking of those who warp Islam by placing their own cultural customs and traditions before the Laws of Allah.

PAZ, Khadija

Edited by Khadija1021

Assalamu Alaikum

 

ZamanH wrote:      All languages can be called artificial because they are the result of human endeavour to communicate with each other. However, Esperanto is the only language, that is recongnised as an artificial language. All other known languages are considered natural. I consider Western culture is to cultures of rest of the world, what Esperanto is to all the other languages. Western culture is too much contrived, to me it seems to go totally against human nature. In our relationship with nature, our approach should be one of least confrontation with it. Aspiring for total conquest of nature that surrounds us (and that exists within us), I consider to be absolute madness.

 

ZamanH, I believe you are telling the truth when you say that you �consider Western culture is to cultures of rest of the world, what Esperanto is to all the other languages�; however, that is a very poor analogy.  And let�s all pray to Allah that the West never ends so that you will have something to blame all of the problems of the world on.  Do you really know Western society?  Or only the parts that those in your society try to mimic?  Have you ever actually been to a Western country?  I�m not trying to say they are all good; however, they are also not all bad either. 

ZamanH wrote:     It has become a cliche to say that man and woman are equal or that man and women complement each other. They are both indespensable for human society to work properly. Each of them is as important as the other.

 

Which part of this do you not agree with?  The last time I checked, Allah said these things in the Qur�an.  I want you to show me exactly where it says in the Qur�an or Sunnah that men and women are not equal or that they do not complement one another or that they are not indispensable for human society to work properly or that they are not important to one another.  How could you possibly utter these things and believe they are merely a �clich� created by Western society.  This is what Allah said about the very creation of men and women.

 

O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord Who created you from a single person created of like nature his mate and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women; reverence Allah through Whom ye demand your mutual (rights) and (reverence) the wombs (that bore you): for Allah ever watches over you. (4:1)

 

Allah created a single person (Adam) and created of �like nature� a mate (Eve) for him.  From them two (twain) all other men and women were born.  It says from �like nature� which regardless of what you believe implies similarities.  Furthermore, in the same ayat, it says that �ye� (i.e., �mankind� referring to all humans and not just men) �demand your mutual (rights).�  It doesn�t just say demand your rights, it says �demand your mutual (rights).�  The word mutual means �having the same relationship each to the other.�  It doesn�t imply that they demand different rights or made different demands about their right.  They simply demand their mutual rights.  It�s that simple!  You can call these �modern western clich�s�; however, if you don�t mind, I will simply call them like they are�the words of Allah!

 

How could you not say that both men and women are not indispensable for human society to work properly?  Can you perceive of a single society with all men and no women that could work properly?  Even on the most fundamental level that is not possible.  Women are needed if for no other reason than to keep the society from dying off.  On the other hand, it is completely possible for a society of women to work properly without any men at all.  All they would need are some frozen sperm and a turkey baster.  That may sound crude; however, logically speaking, it is completely possible.  So, if you are going to start complaining about such things, maybe we should really start looking at who is �dispensable� and who is �important� in keeping the species going.  It might be easy for you to look at the past and point to Adam while saying that Allah created man first; however, it is just as easy for a person to look at the future and point to a woman while saying that without her life doesn�t go on.  Furthermore, even if something was to happen and every man on the face of the planet was to suddenly die of some horrible disease, as long as there was a freezer with some frozen sperm in it, women could repopulate the world.  How does that sound to you ZamanH?  Doesn�t feel too good does it?  The shoe only feels good when we have it on our own foot. 

 

ZamanH wrote: Hence their rights must be equal to be fair to each of them. The problem, of course, is how to maintain (and define) equality of rights.

 

Brother ZamanH, why should that be so hard?  All one has to do it turn to the Qur�an and the Sunnah and one will find a definition of equality of rights.  Furthermore, one does not have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out.  All one has to do is have an honest desire to see the Truth as set for by Allah.  The problem for some people is that they have to remove the blinders on their eyes that are caused by customs and traditions of their culture that go against the Qur�an and Sunnah.  We are to bend our wills to the Qur�an and Sunnah, not bend the Qur�an and Sunnah to our will.

 

ZamanH wrote: As I have earlier said, equality of rights don't imply their identicality. Rights of an individuals should be commensurate with the contribution of the individual to the society (of course, a Communist will raise his eyebrows here, but that has always been and that will always be). Contribution not just in the quantitative sense but also qualititatively. That brings in the notion of duties into picture. To me it appears, rights complement duties. Rights of all the adult members to be for their duties to the society. Right not to be seen in isolation of duties. To me, equality means that for no individual in the society his/her duties of the soceity be allowed to exceed his/her rights (that in turn, to me, appears to be duties of the society towards that individual) granted by the society and distibution of rights be such that such an arrangement can be stably maintained.

 

This Brother ZamanH is right where you really start to go wrong.  This is where you start expecting the Qur�an and Sunnah to bend to your social customs and traditions.  Islam is not a cast system and no matter how much you want it to be, it will never be because in so far as you bend it that way, it is no longer Islam but rather some �artificial� religion which you call �Islam�.

ZamanH wrote: I see, distribution of rights amongst various members of the society, to be complementary to distribution of duties amongst them. Duties to be ascribed to various members of the society cannot totally be based on their choice/preference, but more on their aptitude/capabilties (and of course, the  requirements of the society, too). I believe Alllah has already partly decided how the duties of various members of the society be divided, in that, He has not only specified specific roles for men and women to follow in the society but, has also sent them endowed with capabilities specific to the roles He has specified for them to follow. As can be seen, men and women differ greatly in their capabilites (i.e have totally different areas of expertise). As such their duties are bound to be different and so are their rights too.

Once again, you are trying to ascribe a cast system to Islam.  Allah didn�t partly decide anything; He decided all things.  It is simply men like you who want to believe that Allah left thing out so they can twist and turn Islam to fit their own personal needs and desires.  I�m not saying that there are not duties which are assigned to men and women by Allah; however, you go way over board and in doing so, you dig yourself deep into things you obviously do not know much about.  Just because women give birth doesn�t mean they are solely defined in Islam as mothers and housekeepers.  Women have the right ordained to them by Allah to work, earn an income, to own property, and even to inheritance.  The Prophet�s first wife, Khadija, was a business woman of the first order.  It was her money that supported not only her life with the Prophet (pbuh) before Islam, but also supported the crucial early years of Islam, and she took care of the poor as well.  With her money!  Money that she earned as well as money she inherited from her family.  She also gave birth to Muhammad�s children and did other duties that were hers as a mother and wife.

ZamanH wrote: Men are stronger, therefore they are more suited to work outside home and for work that requires greater physical strehgth. Women in turn to undertake work that does not require great physical strength or endurance, but which can be as much tiring (and possibly more time consuming). Thus man to work for woman, and, woman to work for man. Both of them equally, but differently, to work for each other and equally being benefitted by each other, in turn.

You assume that men are stronger than women; however, it is a fact that there are many women who are stronger than some men.  There is no proof that men are more suitable for work than women especially based upon your assumption that men are more suited for physically labor.  Have you ever given birth ZamanH?  I don�t think a man on the face of the planet can really knows what the term �hard labor� means especially if one compares it to the �hard labor� a woman goes through in order to give birth.  And do you have any real idea of how much strength and energy it takes to keep a house, take care of children, cook dinner, wash clothes, and still look beautiful and be sexy enough for your husband in order to keep him from �gazing� at other women?  Men�s work is usually done in 8 to 10 hours; when is women�s work done?  To be a woman is to be on call 24 hours a day 7 days a week.  While her husband is resting peacefully after his 40 hour work week, his wife is still cooking and cleaning.  She is lucky if she gets a rest at all.  I�m sorry but that doesn�t sound anything close to a fair division of labor.  In fact, the truth of the matter is that Allah knows best, and that we should simply stop trying to build theories that justify male superiority and start following Allah and the Prophet�s lead.  Isn�t that why we were given Islam?  Yes, the Prophet went to battle but so did Aisha.  She fought in battles and other women went to battle for many reasons and not just to wash men�s clothes and to feed them.  Sure the Prophet�s wives each cleaned their own homes, but the Prophet also helped around the house when he was home.  Not only did he do it on his �days off�; he would help after he had been out working all day.  You might want to reconsider you thinking a bit by taking your blinders off.  Men are required to provide for their wives maintenance because women work hard to provide a comfortable life for their husbands and to protect what is his when he is not at home.

ZamanH wrote: It is in that context that I believe that rights of husbands and wife related to intercourse with other sexual partners cannot be compared. Women, in general, leave their original homes to live with their husbands after marriage. Its significance in nature (i.e in earlier times) being, as men are physically stronger they can undertake to built the house and also, as women are closer to children, they undertake  to take greater care of the succeeding generation while, men undertake to take greater care of the preceding generation. Sex helps maintain greater cohesion between husband and wife, and sex should not be allowed to trivialised. Entire concept/institution of marriage revolves around consent of man and woman to have sex with each other. Marriage is just a wrapper, its the consent between husband and wife to have sex with each other, that is the real thing. Intercourse is also the cause of greatest byproduct of marriage, i.e the children. However, as time is not still, a woman cannot possibly be present in more than two different houses to serve two different husbands; thus, she cannot possibly promise more than one man to live with her (though, I have come to know, that in a particular part of India, polyandry (i.e, one wife-many husbands) is practised, but, there too, normally the bride marries a group of brothers and thus live in the same house). That, I consider to be one of the reasons that Allah made women crave for sex less and also, stronger in suppressing their sexual desires.  Also, in all the societies of the world, women who committed sex outside marriage were condemned by their families, but, that of men condone his illicit act, before modern Western ideas had their impact over them (according to which both of them should be condoned for their illicit act).

Brother ZamamH, why do you always swing back around to this issue?  I am not going to go into great detail here because I have already addressed you faulty assumptions in a post on the thread you started about cheating women. 

First, as I mentioned before, it is not necessarily true that a man is more capable (implying he is stronger) of building a house than is a woman. 

Second, how many people do you know who build their own homes?  As far as I know, most people buy them already built by someone else. 

Third, when Allah said to provide for your wives maintenance, he didn�t mean to bring her into your home and then remind her for the rest of her life that it is �your� home.  Men are �protectors� of women� not �dictators�.

Protector:  One who keeps something from being damaged, attacked, stolen or injured.

Dictator:  One who has absolute power with no restrictions.

Forth, if what you said is true then what happens if the wife is the one who proves the home and the maintenance for the family?  Is that why you hate the �modern Western world� so much?  Are you afraid that if the world modernizes that women will gain financial security on they own and will not longer need men like you to provide them with homes thereby nullifying your position? 

Fifth, your assumption that �a woman cannot possibly be present in more than two different houses to serve two different husbands� is not valid.  I can conceive of a world in which a woman could be with one husband in one home one day and then with the other in another home the next day.  Why is that so hard to conceive?   Is it hard for you to conceive because you would then not have your wife there one day to wait on your every need?  Why is it possible for women to be without her husband but not a husband to do without his wife?  You make it sound like the reason women are not allowed to be married to more than one man has to do with something more than the fact that if she had more then one husband, it would be impossible to know who the children belong too.  Actually, with modern technology, that is also no longer problem.  DNA testing can prove who the father is.  The truth of the matter is that the reason Allah granted men the right to take more wives has nothing to do with sex, but rather as I stated in my other post, it has to do with protecting women and children.  It has nothing to do with your false claim that men have greater sex drives than do women.  If you were right in your assumption, then why the plethora of fatwas from women who are seeking advise about not being sexually fulfilled in their marriage.  Do you really think a man that has more than one wife can have sex more than if he has only one?  Having another wife doesn�t magically give him more time to have sex.  In fact, Allah has told women to please their husbands sexually and for men to please their wives sexually, which means that even if a man only had one wife, he would be able to have his sexual desires satisfied�but then again, so would she.

And please do not try to twist my words around to make it sound as if I�m trivializing marriage or the sexual relationship between a husband and wife.  I actually believe that Islamic marriage, if and only if lived the way it was ordained in the Qur�an and supported by the Sunnah, is a glorious union. In fact, according to a number of hadiths, �two persons who love each other only for Allah�s sake and they meet and part in Allah�s cause only� fall under the �Seven people who will be shaded by Allah under His shade on the day when there will be no shade except His.�  There is another hadith in which the Prophet (pbuh) said:

�From among all the conditions which you have to fulfill, the conditions which make it legal for you to have sexual relations (i.e., the marriage contract) have the greatest right to be fulfilled.� (3:50:882 Bukhari)

�The stipulations most entitled to be abided by are those with which you are given the right to enjoy the (woman�s) private parts (i.e., the stipulations of the marriage contract).� (7:62:081, Bukhari)

ZamanH wrote: Thus, as duties of men, as husbands, are significantly different from duties of women, as wives; their duties concerning intercourse with other women cannot be compared with those of women to indulge in it with other men (but  duties of men concerning sex with other women can be evaluated separately/independenly). That, however, does not imply that right to live for both of them should not be identical.

  

ZamanH, I believe, without a doubt, that I have proven (here and on your thread regarding women who cheat) that your argument regarding this issue is invalid.  You should give it up and start seeking to follow Islam instead of trying to justify the customs and traditions of your ancestry.

PAZ, Khadija

Edited by Khadija1021

Brother ZamanH,

Would you please explain how "the girl loses all right to complain"?  If you assume that, then do you also assume that if she is assaulted or raped that she has no right to complain?  If she has lost her right to complain then does the person who assaults her or rapes her get to go without punishment?  I am not condoning immoral behavior; however, I think your position is not only a bit extreme, but rather, dangerous. 

PAZ, Khadija