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freebird View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote freebird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2005 at 4:36pm

The so called Masjid Al Aqsa is not glued in my mind. I have never been there, my parents never visited the place nor my grandparent or any family members or neighbours. Beside I don't have a plan to visit it, it is not in our minds. My oldest brother mentioned about it once but that's long time ago.

The way the non muslims treated the respected city such as this has create the feeling of apathy among the muslims toward Jerussalem. Sure great - in the end the jews can cry on the wall day in day out, without the muslims Jerussalem will be just a city.

Sure there will few thousand christian pilgrims from overseas visiting the place and making note here and there. Man, without Islam the whole religions as we know it today were dead long ago. Islam is the driving force of the world spiritual life today. Your active life in christianity is because you see an active spiritual community in different part of the world who is not declining, and that is th reason of your activity.

Imagine if there is no Islam by now, what are you going to do?

Mekkah is a barren place, a very dear place for the muslims - and there is no need for the non muslims to support it. The muslims are the community that make Mekkah very special. The muslims are the people that make Jerussalem special. 

Without us Mekkah is just a barren uninteresting place. But Allah decreed it to be interesting place, and it is interesting.

But His command, when He intendeth a thing, is only that He saith unto it: Be! and it is. (36:82)

Jerussalem is spiritually dying yet the people just don't get it. But some mothers do have them, not all though.

It is up to the people like you ken, do you want to make the speedy death for it? Your call, we are losing interest to it.

Tell this to that preachers in America that their hey day to make daily hymn with flowing tears unhindered by the muslim is coming. Jerussalem is theirs, the dome of rock dismantled, the dopamine is rushing through the vein, the victory is completed.

Can you imagine the feeling kensky, just like the gladiator who has just won the battle in the arena and the roman crowd is cheering: we who are about to die salute you.



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Angel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2005 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by freebird freebird wrote:

Sure there will few thousand christian pilgrims from overseas visiting the place and making note here and there. Man, without Islam the whole religions as we know it today were dead long ago. Islam is the driving force of the world spiritual life today. Your active life in christianity is because you see an active spiritual community in different part of the world who is not declining, and that is th reason of your activity.

Where on earth do you get that from ?

Quote Mekkah is a barren place, a very dear place for the muslims - and there is no need for the non muslims to support it. The muslims are the community that make Mekkah very special.

Mecca maybe a barren place, like many in the ME, But the Kabaa is there, and the most holist place for muslims, and of course there are other reasons why mecca is special to muslims, not just because of community. 

Quote The muslims are the people that make Jerussalem special.

I'm sorry but that is a whole lot of bull.

There are many reasons why Jerusalem is special and muslims are a part of that too.

Sounds like you just want to be greedy and have ALL to yourself.  

Quote Jerussalem is spiritually dying yet the people just don't get it. But some mothers do have them, not all though.

It is up to the people like you ken, do you want to make the speedy death for it? Your call, we are losing interest to it.

Again, just b/s

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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kenski70 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kenski70 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 December 2005 at 6:50pm
Agreed  the Muslims are an integral part of the history of Jerusalem.the Palestinians are descendants of the Philistines. They've been in that place as far back as the old testament, ironically doesn't seem to matter what religion they are, they've always been enemies of the Jews. Religion aside these two groups have been enemies for 6000 years! And I see no end of the feud in sight. I sure don't want to pick a side, both sides have done some horrible things to the other. As far as I'm concerned all have claim to the city and if everyone agreed to that, there would be much less heartache in the world. Unfortunately fighting and bickering is in mans nature. Its what we do 
Sorry about that turn signal,I must have fallen asleep.
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Angela View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2005 at 8:08am

Andrea, thanks.  I was on my way here this morning to explain the WAS buried, vs IS buried. 

I think it was an excellent answer.

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AhmadJoyia View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AhmadJoyia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2005 at 8:33am

Thanks sis Andrea for clearing many of the things. However, continuing on the same sub-topic, especially once you say "Those are all "spiritual" things as you call them, that happened there and that is why it is holy to us." You happened to forget that such spiritual things are not unique to Jerusalam, but to every where, where ever Jesus went to preach. Isn't it? It is difficult to understand as how one spiritual thing is more or less important than the other. I can quote, and probably you would agree with me, that there are many significant spiritual attachments of Jesus at places other than Jerusalam as well. The only way this last hour spirituality overrides all other occassions is understood to make sense when it is made to realize that some how Jesus changed his mind in this last hour than from rest of his whole life mission. Is this what you are telling us? Think about it? In my humble view, the correct position for my Christian brothers over Jerusalam should be that since Jesus was the continuation of Prophets sent to people of the Isreal, hence all such places which were holy prior to him, thus become holy to people beleiving in him. This is more in line with the Bible, which also tells us that he went to the synogogues in Jerusalam and tried to make the place holy from many mal-practices that had been developed over that place by the Jews. It is this picture, from the physical Jesus preaching in Jerusalm, and his view of attention that he focused on Jerusalam, that makes it holy for our Christian brothers, and no other things which remained "spiritual". Simply put, the emphasis by physical Jesus is of more significance, because of its uniqueness, than from "spiritual" stance, which is not unique.

On the other hand, according to my own understanding, Muslim don't have any thing special about Jerusalam. The famous and most revered mosque in Jerusalam was built by 2nd Caliph, Hz Umar, long time after the death of Prophet Mohammad. It is in this sense, that the significane of this mosque is not better nor less than any other mosque built on the face of this earth after Prophet Mohammad, other than its historical significance for the Muslims. Yes, they do try to bring spirituality concept for their claim of share on that land from the famous visit of Prophet Mohammad to heavens. But one must realise that never ever in his whole life, not in Quran nor that I have come across any hadith (at least not to my knowledge), there is any thing like making it obligatory for Muslim to occupy that place for such a  visit by Prophet Mohammad. Mentioning of that place as holy in the Quran, doesn't give any legitimate reason for Muslims to strive for it. However, its totally another thing to drive the people out of that place on the plea of holiness for any particular religion. Those who have been living there in Jerusalam, or for that matter anywhere on this earth, since centuries, as a basic human right, has the right to stay there and even have the right to fight legally for their right of self defence against all atrocities of the aggressors to occupy their land on such flimsy pretexts of holiness. Yes, for those who consider it any religious attachement to any place, they can purchase the land and live in that area, but they don't have any right to bar others not to do the same.    



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Angela View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Angela Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2005 at 9:32am

You happened to forget that such spiritual things are not unique to Jerusalam, but to every where, where ever Jesus went to preach. Isn't it? It is difficult to understand as how one spiritual thing is more or less important than the other. I can quote, and probably you would agree with me, that there are many significant spiritual attachments of Jesus at places other than Jerusalam as well. The only way this last hour spirituality overrides all other occassions is understood to make sense when it is made to realize that some how Jesus changed his mind in this last hour than from rest of his whole life mission. Is this what you are telling us? Think about it? In my humble view, the correct position for my Christian brothers over Jerusalam should be that since Jesus was the continuation of Prophets sent to people of the Isreal, hence all such places which were holy prior to him, thus become holy to people beleiving in him.

Brother, there are many places that are Holy to Christians.  The location of the Sermon on the Mount, the site of his first Miracle, Bethlehem, Egypt.  But, in Jerusalem, he sealed his new covenant and triumphed over death.  This is greater than any sermon or healing.  This was for the entire world.  The Atonement and Resurrection are leaps and bounds ahead of turning water to wine or casting out devils from Mary Magdeline.  I suppose since you only see Jesus as a Prophet and you do not believe in these events, you cannot understand how they speak to the heart of a Christian.  The days between Palm Sunday and Easter are so sacred to all Christians, its hard to express that to anyone who doesn't believe.

And as for Jesus's doubts.  Now, remembering I'm LDS and so I can't speak for other denominations on this one.  We believe that our souls existed before creation.  When we are born here, a veil is pulled over our eyes so we cannot remember our lives with God.  This is so we can be tested.  We believe in order to progress eternally, we must go through certain trials.  Jesus in this respect was no different.  He to had to be tested.  We cannot even imagine what he went through in the Garden.  It said he bleed from every pour.  So, how can we question if he had a moment in failing?  Would I have been any stronger?  No, not even close.  But, in the end, doubt or not, he went forth and prayed for those that killed him.  "Father, they know not what they do." 

And yet, in that last moment, he failed not, instead he submitted himself to God entirely.

Luke 23:46

And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

And as for Muslims not finding anything special about Jerusalem?  This statement confuses me totally given the last 1400 years in that region?

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Andrea View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Andrea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2005 at 10:44am

Those who have been living there in Jerusalam, or for that matter anywhere on this earth, since centuries, as a basic human right, has the right to stay there and even have the right to fight legally for their right of self defence against all atrocities of the aggressors to occupy their land on such flimsy pretexts of holiness. Yes, for those who consider it any religious attachement to any place, they can purchase the land and live in that area, but they don't have any right to bar others not to do the same.    

And to that I say, Amen!!  I agree wholeheartedly with you on that.  I think it is rude to come into someone's home bearing arms and kicking them out of it.  Not only is it rude, but it is also primitive and barbaric.  That is why we have an economic system and laws that allow for the sale of land, the issuing of Visas to visit countries, and fast airplanes to to visit them any time one wishes. 

However you and I know very well that the issue goes much deeper than that.  It originates since thousand's of years and the arrogance of the Jews in this case has made it impossible to have peace in this area.  Sure Jerusalem is holy to Christians, and at one time we did try to occupy Jerusalem, but honestly, I don't see Christians today claiming physical ownership of it.  We claim it in our hearts maybe, but I don't see a multitude of Christians trying to drive out both Jews and Muslims so that we have it all to ourselves.  The conflict here is between Jews and Muslims.  And in my humble opinion, I think it's the Jews who have not been able to "share" the place.  They haven't been "playing nice". 

So going back to your question:

It is difficult to understand as how one spiritual thing is more or less important than the other.

Well my friend, in order to understand this you would have to understand how our faith works.  But there is one part in the bible that says that if you don't believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, then your whole faith is for nothing.  This means that you could believe everything else, but if you don't believe this one little part then you've missed the whole point, and his sacrifice was lost on you.  Kind of like hearing a joke but missing the punch line!!  You don't get to laugh!!

Peace.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Community Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 December 2005 at 3:09pm

The land was holy before the birth of Jesus, and before the last prophet made the night journey to it. The holy land is right in the middle, between Europe, Asia and Africa, travelers from the west who went eastwards met there with travelers from the east who taveled westward. And those who found eachother chose to live there in peace. If you mix African with European and Asian you will get a person that is semetic. And out of this mixed people Allah chose His chosen people for messengers and prophets to declare that He is One God and He is the only one to be served. He chose them upon a knowledge He says in the koran.

Jerusalem "the house of peace" why would The Lord not declare it holy when it was the first place on earth where different people met and chose to live together in peace? Jerusalem.

For those who wish to learn something new and reflect, In arabic "Jaar" means "neighbour" so Jarusalem would mean "the neighbour" of peace.



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