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Hi shadowpuppet,

Be careful, you're tripping over that false dicotomy again when you say, " So, maybe reading through the forums it doesn't seem that way from a Muslim perspective, but from an American (no religion) it seems full of hate."

There are many members of this forum (myself included) who are BOTH American and Muslim. So this issue of American vs. Muslim perspective is an illussion (like a shadow puppet).

I think what you mean to say is that from the perspective of someone who does not know anything about Islam (i.e., a non-Muslim), some of the laws of the Shariah (specifically the punishment for crimes like apostacy, adultry, fornication, etc.) seem to be harsh. Regarding this point, please understand two things. 1.) Regarding sexual crimes, Islam considers these crimes to be against the entire society, and not just the individual, hence the harsh punishment, however, 2.) The burden from proof in these cases is VERY high (i.e., in the case of adultery, four witness have to physically see the person committing adultery, which almost never occurs or the person must confess to a government official in public). and 3.) Shariah (Islamic law) is only applicable in a Muslim society, hence, the Muslims would be familar and accept the basis for these laws. Noone is attempting (for example) to implement Shariah law in the U.S., which is a not an Islamic country.

My point is only this, if you are curious about the reasons behind (and their are logical reasons, and not faith alone) the things which you find disturbing, perplexing, confusing, etc. then ask specific questions. If you would like referals to informational websites about Islam, I can give you some. Noone is here to preach to you or try to convert you. We, however, will answer any and all questions, but it is up to you to ask them. "Truth stands out clearly from error" and "Allah (God) guides whomever he wills to the straigh path."

shadowpuppet wrote: ........I live in the U.S. I'm not religious by any means.  Even if this was a Christian site it would still scare me off a bit, but it's especially different being Islamic, which I'm sure you understand. I was looking through old posts and such and am confused.  There are some users that seem to absolutely hate us, some are tolerant.  At any rate, I'm curious.

My dear Bro shadowpuppet,

There are every kind of people in this world, both extremists on either end and the moderates with varying scales and grades. And since this is an open forum (not just of muslims or for a particular kind or belief of muslims) hence you may find all kind of ideas and notions spread all over its threads. However, the important point to make is how rational / irrational there arguments are as far as their ideas/statements are concerned. It is this rationality through which any one can make his/her own opinion about the topics under discussion.

Is there a way to look at Americans in any other way than in a religious or political way?  I have a feeling that our way of thinking is completely different than the people at this site.  I personally, as most of my friends, don't look at other countries in a political or religious view, but people in general that we meet we either like or dislike them for who they are.

My brother, the problem with people outside USA is that they only see it through its political policies only and explain it through its major occupants' religiosity. This view, unanimously known to all over the world and not just the muslim world, is of not very commendable. However, on the personal level as an individual, by interaction through day to day life experiences with individual american or with a group of any organization within the USA, the view about them is 180 deg opposite. Why is this change in perspective? I can only provide my analysis, which ofcourse my be very limited or even totally wrong. The most important factor that I have experienced and come across is the inherant virtue of american politics, which is totally different within its own country when dealing with its own population and totally different approach when dealing with outside world. Individuals, again vary from person to person, however, overall americans are very reasonable in their approach, in their behavior. Overall, they are extremely curtious and highly tolerant of others' faith and beliefs. But unfortunately, as I have mentioned before, this is only a hidden treasure which mostly people outside this country don't know of it or don't want to argue about it. What mostly they have observed and want to talk about is the american policies towards others, which ofcourse are, if I use a humble word for it, 'selfish'. Now coming to your way of judging people, again, you have yourself said that you only judge when you meet them, but what about those about whom you haven't met, then how do you judge about them. I would say that then the media brings in this missing link and most of americans judge people of other nation through the baised eye of media. 

Do Islamic, Muslim, whoever they may be, like us as people?

Yes, as an individual, I love my american brothers and sisters. I want to be like them in their etiquettes and in their honesty and truthfulness in their openness about any issue. It is this virtue that make me say that muslims of this part of the world are going to be the future leaders of the Islamic world. Simply because they have all the virtues of being a true muslim. Ironically, baring exceptions here and there, these virtues are glaringly missing among the people in the muslim dominated countries. However, on an international arena, the principles, as I discussed above, are based on totally a different equation and differnt rules of the game and hence totally opposite image.

Is it the political and religious things that cause hate or is it just a general thing altogether that you hate us?  That seems to be what I gather from this site.

I think its wrong to lable political and religious things as a reason for hate on an international level. What counts more important is one's selfless commitment for the betterment of all and not just self. I would rather give a allowance for selfish behaviour for the betterment of their own country, but what worse is happening is the use of double standards in this game of international politics simply because "might is right" kind of rule being implemented. Middle east policies are just one example of it. Good relations with the royal families/dictators of oppressive regimes in other countries is another one of them. And ........list goes on and on.

I ask because my Dr. is from Syria, my Chiropractor from Turkey and I'm assuming they're Muslim, etc.  I'm starting to wonder if when I walk in there that they look at me in disgust.

No, I don't think so (if you are not an exception other wise; which I don't think of about you). They would rather have preference of you being their clint over many others of their own faith, simply because of the virtues that I have described above.

So what are your views on Americans in general? I see there's a difference in race also? More tolerant of black?  Is this because they are more likely to be Muslim? (forgive me if I don't know what I'm talking about because really I don't).

I don't no which thread are you refering to when you say you see difference in race, but from Islamic perspective, there is no (I repeat no) such discrimination at all at any level. Tolerance or intolerance are subjective behaviors depending upon many factors and its really hard to factor it out exclusively to muslims.

I'm assuming they can't marry outside of being Islamic?  I ask because the chiropractor flirted often.

This is an interesting comment and reflects your unawareness about Islam. Nonetheless, flirting itself is unacceptable behaviour in Islam what to talk of simply marrying with regard to Islamic rules. However, you will find every kind of muslims and that is not a subject of debate. Those muslims who use flirting or similar acts already don't care much about Islam, hence no question about marrying out of Islam at all. They may even chose not to marry at all and yet live their lives. There decision is with them and ofcourse their behaviour must not be taken as representative of Islam.

I'm just curious on these things and would like to understand.  It seems the government here thinks differently than the citizens, as most of us don't agree with our troops being over there. Just curious, thanks.

I totally agree with your quote.

Ali Zaki wrote: Hi Astro  (sorry, spelling it all is just too much, no disrespect intended).

No disrespect taken. I like it.

Ali Zaki wrote: ... Imam (which is a special title in Arabic) ...

I know! A good friend of our family is an Imam. I read so many of you folks saying that we Americans are ignorant about Islam. Some people are, yes, but many of us are much better educated than you seem to think!

I get so sick of this "you are ignorant" and "you are horrible" kind of chatter that we read in some posts. We ALL have a lot to learn.

Ali Zaki wrote: This is the last thing I will say about Iraq in this thread.

If you say so...

Ali Zaki wrote: Our government is not doing the world (and especially the Iraqi people) and favor by removing Sadam. Please don't misunderstand me, I'm very glad he's gone (and anxiously anticipating his public execution), however, he was trained and supported by our government from 1980 (see: War with Iran) until the begining of the Gulf War (more than 10 years). There would have been no Sadam to begin with if it wasn't for our government supporting him and his brutal and Satanic government. The best thing that could be said about the U.S. is that they are removing the cancer which they grew (and it's still not fully removed).

That is not true, Ali. Saddam got no help from the U.S. until he was well established as a military dictator (with a lot of help from the Soviet Union). In the 80s, Reagan sold him some anti-aircraft missles, but American weapon sales to him were only around 2% of his arsenal purchases for those years in question. His weapons and other financial support was mostly Russian: Ba'athist policy is a Muslim version of Communism. The U.S. sold this equipment so merely as a way of getting some diplomatic traction: Saddam could not get spare parts if the U.S. did not like what Saddam did with his military.

Saddam came to power as a Ba'athist assassin in the wake of the turmoil that seems endemic in that region in the absence of tyranny. After the Ottoman Empire was defeated by the English and Arab allies, and the Arab regions were free to establish governments, the French refused to honor their agreement to create a pan-Arab state and threw Faisal out of Damascus to the English. The English compensated Faisal by creating a state for him with Baghdad  as its capital. In the early 1930s, after about a decade, during which the British helped protect this new state from being taken over by the discontent remnants of the Ottoman power structure, Iraq became a free state. During the next few decades, internal Iraqi elements, including communist Ba'athists supported by the USSR, fought to wrest control from this government.

You cannot pin Saddam on the U.S., Ali. It is historically inaccurate and grossly unfair to do so. This is just the sort of thing that distracts people from the real causes and problems, and that's why nothing ever seems to get better over there.

Ali Zaki wrote: Before the reign of King George II, polls conducted in the Middle East consistently showed that most (over 50%) Muslims and/or Arabs had a generally (although not completely) favorable view of America and Americans. It was only after the arrogant and unilateral hawks (such as P.Wolfowitz and D.Cheny) took control of the whitehouse that the current trend began where the vast majority of Muslims (and non-Muslims) around the world had an unfavorable view of America.

Anti-American propaganda serves the nefarious purposes that I previously stated, and it has been very effective in parts of the world where there is no free press to give alternative views. And it has been fed by foolish leftests in the U.S. who believe that they need to undermine American policy and get people killed needlessly in order to regain control of the U.S. goverment

Peace!

Astro

Thanks again for the information.

But for the record, I'm not a "bro" lol.  I'm a girl!! A 28 year old one.  I thought the chiro flirting would have given it away, but maybe not.  Unless I'm really ignorant and you call the ladies bro as well.