Error in Quran and hadiths about Thamud

Abu Loren wrote: T in TG stands for something so I'll call you Tony. Well Tony the Qur'an talks about you and people like you. So let's have a look. Sahih International And when you recite the Qur'an, We put between you and those who do not believe in the Hereafter a concealed partition. Pickthall And when thou recitest the Qur'an we place between thee and those who believe not in the Hereafter a hidden barrier; Sahih International And We have placed over their hearts coverings, lest they understand it, and in their ears deafness. And when you mention your Lord alone in the Qur'an, they turn back in aversion. Pickthall And We place upon their hearts veils lest they should understand it, and in their ears a deafness; and when thou makest mention of thy Lord alone in the Qur'an, they turn their backs in aversion. Sahih International We are most knowing of how they listen to it when they listen to you and [of] when they are in private conversation, when the wrongdoers say, "You follow not but a man affected by magic." Pickthall We are Best Aware of what they wish to hear when they give ear to thee and when they take secret counsel, when the evil-doers say: Ye follow but a man bewitched. 17:45-47

Salaam Alaikum, Abu Loren.

You can call me Tony if you want, I don't mind.

I'm not turning my back on NABA or any other Muslim poster. I listen to what they have to say, and I respond.

I have evidence, from both Muslim and non-Muslim archaeological sources, that the stone structures carved out of rock at Madain Saleh were built by the Nabataeans between 200 BC and AD 200.

http://saudi-archaeology.com/sites/madain-saleh/

http://www.islamicurbanheritage.org.sa/english/MadanSaleh.aspx

http://whc.unesco.org/archive/advisory_body_evaluation/1293.pdf

Please feel free to bring up archaeological or historical evidence that proves these sources wrong, or that dates the buildings at Madain Saleh to the time of Moses.


The Quran claims that these stone structures are desolate houses that  were built by the Thamud before Moses. Archaeological evidence shows they were tombs and temples built by the Nabataeans some 2,000 years ago.

Based on this evidence, I present yet another piece of proof that the Quran is wrong and not from God.

May God lead us all to salvation in Him.
     - TG12345


Edited by TG12345 - 05 October 2013 at 7:17am

TG12345 wrote: I have evidence, from both Muslim and non-Muslim archaeological sources, that the stone structures carved out of rock at Madain Saleh were built by the Nabataeans between 200 BC and AD 200.

I haven't read the whole thread but I think you are blind and lost all reasoning because you want to prove Islam is wrong and that a great scholar wrote the Qur'an. I hope you have an answer on the Day of Resurrection.The thing with stones is that it cannot be dated. It is perfectly feasible that the Nabataeans inherited those stone carvings and structures from an earlier people.

As an example, there is an alternative theory that the pyramids of Egypt and the temples were not built by the Egyptians but an earlier people and the Egyptians inherited these from them. This is perfectly sensical in light of missing hard evidence.I don't know if you are aware but the Thamudians were really huge people, it is said that they averaged between 7 and 8 feet tall. So the time line can also be wrong, we don't really know much about human history. For example, who can say the amount of time that lasted from the time of Nuh (Alayhi Salaam) and Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam). Don't forget Nuh (Alayhi Salaam) lived for 930 years and if I'm not mistaken he was 9th generation from Adam (Alayhi Salaam).
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NABA wrote: Because archaeologists are nothing in front of God, since Our Lord says that only islam is acceptable that's enough for us!!!!even I m a medical student in sha Allah after yrs if I treat people I will not say I treated i will say Allah cured them, because Allah says in ch 29 v 49-if u strive in way of Allah Allah will open pathways.so in this world we have to strive result will b given by Allah.how these people become archaeologists?? It is bcoz of Allah, because not a leaf falls without permission of Allah (ch 6 v 59) so whom I follow findings or commandments of Allah?? My answer is whatever Allah had mentioned in quran I believe in it and that is the truth.

Salaam Alaikum, NABA. I understand your position.

In spite of archaeological and (on other threads) scientific evidence that shows that parts of the Quran are wrong, you choose to ignore it. You do so because the Quran says otherwise, and you believe it is the word of God. You believe it to be such even though there is very clear evidence that it contains mistakes.

OK, that is your choice. I have shown you clear archaeological and scientific evidence of errors in the Quran, which is proof that it cannot be the word of God. Other than saying that the Quran is God's word, you have been unable to refute my points, or prove the Quran's words are correct.

You can choose to keep believing that the Quran is God's word, and ignoring the evidence of its errors, if that is your wish. I have a lot of respect for you, and this will not change. I will pray for peace and happiness for you in this life, and that you come to know Christ before your time here comes to an end, so you may find salvation by believing in Him and what He did for you.

God bless you.


Edited by TG12345 - 07 October 2013 at 5:55pm

 

TG12345 wrote: I have evidence, from both Muslim and non-Muslim archaeological sources, that the stone structures carved out of rock at Madain Saleh were built by the Nabataeans between 200 BC and AD 200.

Abu Loren wrote: I haven't read the whole thread but I think you are blind and lost all reasoning because you want to prove Islam is wrong and that a great scholar wrote the Qur'an. I hope you have an answer on the Day of Resurrection.

I don't need to prove Islam is wrong. The Quran and hadiths do a great job doing this on their own.

Abu Loren wrote: The thing with stones is that it cannot be dated. It is perfectly feasible that the Nabataeans inherited those stone carvings and structures from an earlier people.

How do you know that stones cannot be dated? What information are you getting this from?

"How old is it?" While archaeologists seem to answer this question with ease, the answer is based on difficult science. Accurately dating an archaeological site requires the application of two distinct methods of dating: relative and absolute. Relative dating establishes the date of archaeological finds in relation to one another. Absolute dating is the often more difficult task of determining the year in which an artifact, remain, or geological layer was deposited.

Relative dating relies on the principle of superposition. This principle states that deeper layers in a stratified sequence of naturally or humanly deposited earth are older than shallower layers. In other words, the uppermost layer is the most recent, and each deeper layer is somewhat older. Relative chronologies come from two sources: (1) careful stratigraphic excavation in the field, noting the precise location of every artifact and remain within layers of earth; and (2) close study of the characteristics of artifacts themselves.

Archaeologists commonly use clay potsherds to develop chronological sequences for cultures of the Neolithic and later periods. Pottery was invented during the last Stone Age period, known as the Neolithic, which began about 10,000 years ago in the Middle East. Potsherds occur in such large numbers in most sites that researchers can collect only small samples of them in a single excavation. Using statistical sampling methods, archaeologists can use smaller numbers of artifacts, such as potsherds, to make accurate estimations of the total numbers of each type of artifact. Archaeologists use such statistical estimates to reconstruct sequences of past cultural change, as follows.

When studying potsherds or other artifacts, archaeologists record variations in characteristics such as material composition, form, style, and decoration. This information forms the basis for developing seriations (artifact sequences), which chronicle artifact evolution over hundreds or thousands of years. Pottery characteristics, like modern automobile designs and clothing fashions, changed over time, growing and then diminishing in popularity. By noting these changes, archaeologists can establish long sequences of artifact styles.

In the 1960s on an ancient village site in the Tehuac�n Valley of present-day Mexico, Richard MacNeish examined hundreds of broken potsherds from dozens of sites. From these fragments, MacNeish documented a shift from plain to richly decorated vessels over a period of several occupations of the village. He developed a complete sequence of pottery styles across the entire valley from before 3000 BC to recent times. MacNeish also gave absolute dates to his sequence using radiocarbon analysis from charcoal found near and around potsherds.

Absolute dating, sometimes called chronometric dating, refers to the assignment of calendar year dates to artifacts, fossils, and other remains. Obtaining such dates is one of archaeology�s greatest challenges. Archaeologists who specialize in prehistoric periods use a variety of both well-established and experimental methods for absolute dating of ancient cultures.

Dating to Objects of Known Age  One of the simpler ways to determine the absolute age of an object is to find historical documents or objects of known age that confirm the date, or both. The earliest recordings of dates, documented in writing or some other form of decipherable notation, come from about 3000 BC in southwestern Asia. In other areas, people did not begin to record dates until far more recently. In the Americas, for instance, writing did not exist until after the 1st century AD; the civilizations of Mesoamerica, such as the Olmec, Aztec, and Maya, were the only civilizations in the Americas to have writing�the Inca of South America left no evidence of writing.

Artifacts with known dates, such as coins or pottery of a well-known period, provide archaeologists with comparisons that allow them to assign dates to other sites and cultures that did not have writing. For example, during his excavations of Knossos in the early 1900s Sir Arthur Evans also studied pottery vessels found in Egypt that were made by the Minoan inhabitants of Bronze Age Crete. Knowing the dates of the sites in Egypt where the vessels were found, Evans determined that the Minoan civilization, one of several to rule the island of Crete, flourished between 2000 and 1250 BC. Because of its dependence on writing, the method of using historically dated artifacts to date new finds can only be used on archaeological sites that existed after the advent of written records.

Dendrochronology, or tree-ring dating, was originally developed in the Southwest United States using the annual growth rings on long-lived trees, such as bristlecone pine. These growth rings fluctuate in width from year to year, depending on annual rainfall. By studying the growth patterns of many ancient trees that lived for long periods of time, researchers can create so-called master tree-ring patterns. These master patterns can be compared with pieces of wood found in archaeological sites. Thus, archaeologists can use wooden objects, such as house posts, to determine the age of artifacts and other remains. Since the 1920s, archaeologists doing research in the Southwest have used dendrochronology to date wooden beams from pueblos. The wooden beams have been well preserved in the dry heat of the area and have been used to precisely date sites such as Mesa Verde, Colorado, and Pueblo Bonito in Chaco Canyon, New Mexico.

In recent years, researchers have applied dendrochronology to European oaks and a variety of Mediterranean trees. Dendrochronologists have established tree-ring chronologies that extend to as early as 6600 BC in Germany. Using these tree-ring chronologies, archaeologists have been able to date the earliest farming in central Europe to between 6000 and 5000 BC. Tree-ring dating has also allowed scientists to date drought cycles that may have been important in the rise and fall of cultures in the Mediterranean and Aegean regions. At the site of one of the world�s earliest farming villages, �atal H�y�k in Turkey, British archaeologist Ian Hodder used a tree-ring sequence to date individual houses within the settlement that existed in about 7000 BC.

Radiocarbon dating was developed by American chemist Willard Libby and his colleagues in 1949, and it quickly became one of the most widely used tools in archaeology. Radiation from space produces neutrons that enter the earth�s atmosphere and react with nitrogen to produce the carbon isotope C-14 (carbon 14). All living organisms accumulate this isotope through their metabolism until it is in balance with levels in the atmosphere, but when they die they absorb no more. Because the nucleus of C-14 decays at a known rate, scientists can determine the age of organic substances such as bones, plant matter, shells, and charcoal by measuring the amount on C-14 that remains in them. See also Dating Methods: Carbon-14 Method.

Radiocarbon methods can date sites that are up to 40,000 or 50,000 years old. These methods have revolutionized archaeology over the past half-century. For instance, radiocarbon testing of materials from early farming settlements at Jericho, in what is now Jordan, dated these settlements to as early as 7800 BC, indicating that they are more than 3500 years older than was once thought.

In recent years, scientists have developed a new approach to radiocarbon dating using a device called an accelerator mass spectrometer. This device directly counts C-14 atoms, rather than counting rates of disintegration. Accelerator mass spectrometry (AMS) can date a sample as small as a single kernel of grain or a fleck of wood preserved inside a bronze axe socket. This method can date items that are up to 90,000 years old.

Since AMS dates can come from very small, isolated objects, the resulting chronologies can be much more accurate than those from standard radiocarbon dating. For example, American archaeologist Bruce Smith used AMS to date individual maize cobs from caves in the Tehuac�n Valley. His results indicated that domesticated corn was grown there by about 2500 BC, much later than earlier radiocarbon dates had suggested.

Radiocarbon dates are approximations, and they are published with statistical margins of error. For instance, a date may be given as 30,000 BC � 2000 years. However, the radiocarbon dates of objects less than about 8000 years old are also compared with and calibrated to dates from tree-ring analysis. These estimates can pinpoint the age of an object with great precision, often to within 100 years.

Potassium-argon dating provides approximate dates for sites in early prehistory. Geologists use this method to date volcanic rocks that may be as much as 4 billion to 5 billion years old. Potassium is one of the most abundant elements in the earth�s crust. Many minerals contain radioactive K-40 (potassium 40) isotopes, which decay at a known rate into Ar-40 (argon 40) gas. Scientists use a device called a spectrometer to measure the accumulation of Ar-40 in relation to amounts of K-40. The ratio of these elements can indicate the age of a geologic layer, generally since it last underwent a metamorphosis, such as melting under the heat of molten lava from a volcanic eruption. Thus, geologic layers rich in volcanic deposits lend themselves to potassium-argon dating.

Prehistoric archaeological sites such as the Koobi Fora area of East Turkana, Kenya, and Olduvai Gorge in Tanzania, both of which formed during periods of intense volcanic activity, have been dated using the potassium-argon method. However, such dates commonly have a high margin of error. For instance, in the 1960s British archaeologist Glynn Isaac studied a site in a layer of Koobi Fora in which it appeared early humans had butchered animal carcasses. Isaac dated the site at 2.6 million years old, with a margin of error of over 250,000 years.

Archaeologists also use more experimental methods of absolute dating. Electron spin resonance (ESR) measures the electrons captured in bone or shell samples up to 2 million years old. ESR testing on human tooth enamel from Skhul Cave in Israel dates some of the earliest anatomically modern humans in southwestern Asia to about 100,000 years ago.

Uranium series dating measures the radioactive decay of uranium isotopes in rocks made up of calcium carbonates, such as limestone and calcite. This technique may be used to date bones and tools embedded in these rocks. For instance, in 1994 archaeologists Allison Brooks and John Yellen used uranium series dating to determine the age of early African fish spears made of animal bone. The spears, which came from Katanda in the present-day Democratic Republic of the Congo, are thought to date to about 20,000 years ago.

Thermoluminescence is a technique that measures electron emissions from once-heated materials, such as pottery or rocks that were once exposed to solar or volcanic heat. Many thermoluminescence tests have produced unreliable results. Archaeologists are attempting to refine the technique.

Once a site has been documented, mapped, and dated, the archaeologist tries to integrate all the data into a coherent and understandable picture of the past. Archaeologists draw from what is already known of the archaeological record to develop their interpretations. Their new interpretations then add to that body of knowledge.

http://history-world.org/archeology.htm

Abu Loren wrote: As an example, there is an alternative theory that the pyramids of Egypt and the temples were not built by the Egyptians but an earlier people and the Egyptians inherited these from them. This is perfectly sensical in light of missing hard evidence.

The ancient Egyptians built the pyramids. The builders weren't Hebrew slaves, regardless of what Hollywood and popular imagination may teach. However, they were built by Egyptians.
http://harvardmagazine.com/2003/07/who-built-the-pyramids-html
http://news.discovery.com/history/ancient-egypt/pyramids-tombs-giza-egypt.htm
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/ancient/who-built-the-pyramids.html

Please present some academic and reputable sources that state they were built by people who lived before the Egyptians.

Abu Loren wrote: I don't know if youre aware but the Thamudians were really huge people, it is said that they averaged between 7 and 8 feet tall.

No, I wasn't aware of that. Please provide some proof.

Abu Loren wrote:  So the time line can also be wrong, we don't really know much about human history. For example, who can say the amount of time that lasted from the time of Nuh (Alayhi Salaam) and Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam). Don't forget Nuh (Alayhi Salaam) lived for 930 years and if I'm not mistaken he was 9th generation from Adam (Alayhi Salaam).

That is true, but we have no idea when the world started. There are no archaeologists or historians giving dates about this period. We do have archaeologists and historians dating the buildings carved out of stone at Madain Saleh... and their findings indicate that they were not built by the Thamud.

Abu Loren wrote: Let's just say we don't really know anything and in the Qur'an we are only given knowledge that is of benefit to us. I mean what good is it for us to know about a nation that was destroyed other than that a nation WAS destroyed by God?

The story about Saleh and the Thamud is a very important one and has a good message, don't get me wrong. However, if elements of it are not true, then it could not have came from God.

Abu Loren wrote: You need to clear your head and read the Qur'an with an open mind and not with an agenda.

I read the Quran critically and question what it says. I would expect anyone else to do the same with the Bible.

In fact, I would expect people to read critically and question what I write, and if they see mistakes, to point them out to me.