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Hayfa

Senior Member
Senior Member

Female
Joined: 07 June 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2368

Posted: 07 December 2007 at 8:22pm

History and knowing history IS important. Too many people are in a state of denial about things. I think what is not really understood is the profound affect the actions have on our lives today, espcially those who were affected in very negative ways.

I was recently watching a show on National Public Television. They do very good work. And I forget the name of the host.. he was asking several journalists about what the US should do.. and the western journalists, all pretty good were like.. well if we leave blah, blah, blah.. And there was one Iraqi journalist. His main words were "get out." "You have no idea what you are doing here. You don't know our history, you don't know our culture."

People in the west often do not look at the picture from "the other side" in its international history. I took a class in college on methodologies of history and how the way history is presented shapes our world view.

I think it is important to debunk the myth that governments or rulers really care about the people they oppress or enslave etc. There may have been one or two people in the governemts who approached the people with paternalism, (we need to "educate the heathens or the natives"). But rarely was respect part of it.

Edited by Hayfa

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Whisper

Senior Member
Senior Member

Male
Joined: 25 July 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4752

Posted: 07 December 2007 at 8:36pm

But rarely was respect part of it.

You know what's the problem with your posts?

These shut everybody up, even I have gone just plain speechless.

Yes, the Brits had built hospitals and a lot of other things in India, but not a single one of our friends answered my simple question: who paid for all of these?

I hold firm evidence that our great Queen Victoria didn't auction off her wedding ring to pay for these!

Edited by Whisper

Duende

Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 27 July 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 651

Posted: 08 December 2007 at 8:39am

Saladin, if you do not know where you came from (i.e your history) then
you shall not know where you are going.

Yes, you make the usual points about Muslims needing to concentrate on
today and get their act together in order to move forward. This is simply
common sense and it is amazing to me why everybody who mentions it
seems to think they've hit upon the great answer to the problems of
today's ummah.... it's just common sense, akin to picking yourself up,
dusting yourself down and carrying on. It solves precisely NOTHING.

Whether or not the British population as a whole accept their people
committed atrocities in the past is highly debateable. I doubt any British
school history lesson clarifies the mistreatement of 'the darkies'
perpetrated by the British Commonwealth, in Her Majesty's name. It
simply is not taught. This is called revisionism. It's not taught in any ex-
Empire.

It is not all about throwing blame and highlighting the terrible things
carried out by past colonial powers, although this certainly needs to be
done, since very few today are aware of them. It is simply relating things
from the other perspective: that of the oppressed. If you are worried
about the disunity and fragmentation of the ummah, you must know the
root causes of it, and identify those who continue to fan the flames and
embers of it.

Let me ask you something: imagine around 6 million Muslims being
gassed and starved to death by an oppressive regime, let's say about 70
years ago, what kind of politics would we be seeing today? Do you think a
lobby group called something like the American-Muslim Public Affairs
Committee would be working hard to uphold the Arabic and Muslim
populations best interests, influencing governments and foreign policy?
Do you think there would be laws world wide making it illegal to question
the historic facts and data? Do you see how important it can be to get the
facts right, out there and in the public consciousness?

Or maybe you'd like to look at the fate of the American Red Indian
Nation? To this day, denied their true identity by the st**id label 'red
Indian' instead of their separate tribal identities. Why? because Columbus
made a mistake when he reached the shores of America. He was
convinced he had reached the Indies by way of the Western sea route he
was seeking. He thought he was in India (although even in those days,
this was a blanket term for anything farther away than Syria) and so the
natives were dubbed Indians ..... can you see how important it is to get
the proper historic perspective, and to constantly tell people about it?

Israfil

Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 08 September 2003
Status: Offline
Points: 3984

Posted: 09 December 2007 at 12:04am

Agreed. But how much emphasis are we putting into past historical events to contemporary issues? Past historical events are causal factors true, but in discussing policies in a forum setting how much more redundant are we going to make this issue called "history?" Too many people on this planet in general are definitely in denial about a lot of things. Again, we cannot isolate any country, people, or any nation geographically as if one group is ignorant or in denial about a past historical event.

They do very good work. And I forget the name of the host.. he was asking several journalists about what the US should do.. and the western journalists, all pretty good were like.. well if we leave blah, blah, blah.. And there was one Iraqi journalist. His main words were "get out." "You have no idea what you are doing here. You don't know our history, you don't know our culture."

I agree. let the Marines, Army, National guard come home and let them (Iraqi, Afghanistanians) destroy themselves. The government current there is more powerful than the Hoover vaccum.

Like any other academic study what you've learned in that methodologies course with respect to history, has also shaped your view on past historical events, does what you've learned necessarily make it true? Just a question.

Agreed.

I also love the fact how you hide in your own ivory tower of logical deductions thinking or, shall we say, believeing just this to be the be all and end all of life!

What ridiculous nonsense! This has nothing to do with hiding. This has to do with being annoyed by posts that sound redundant.

My friend, the day your country ends the ugly criminal occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, you won't have wash the bloodstains of your flag with your precious tears and such empty posts. Till then, my friend, the occupied will fight at every single front and in every which way.

The day you post something novel outside the scope of redundancy then will you acheive an enlightened status in my book.

Edited by Israfil

Servetus

Senior Member
Senior Member

Male
Joined: 04 April 2001
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2109

Posted: 10 December 2007 at 2:11pm

I am not sure but, by writing and posting that opening piece, I think that Whisper might publicly have blown his chance to be invited to join the Grillions dining club.

Serv

__________________________________

�Black is not just the colour of our skins, it�s the colour of our politics.� (Ambalavaner Sivanandan)

Whisper

Senior Member
Senior Member

Male
Joined: 25 July 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4752

Posted: 10 December 2007 at 10:34pm

This has to do with being annoyed by posts that sound redundant.

Oh, thank you, kind Sir, for the award! How many people am I allowed to bring with me at your Redundant investiture ceremony?

The day you post something novel outside the scope of redundancy then will you acheive an enlightened status in my book.

I am trying, trying very hard, Master, to climb into your Book!

I had thought you just lived in your ivory tower, but sadly enough, you live b e y o n d.

Let me make just THE ONLY VALID POINT absolutely clear and in no uncertain TERMS:

My friend, the day your country ends the ugly criminal occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, you won't have to wash the bloodstains of your flag with your precious tears and such empty posts.

Do I make myself clear? If you still don't find it as the ONLY VALID point, please let me know for then I will know which entrance to climb your Doomsday book through?

Angel

Senior Member
Senior Member

Joined: 03 July 2001
Status: Offline
Points: 6641

Posted: 10 December 2007 at 10:39pm

looks like its getting to the brickering point

Edited by Angel

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

Whisper

Senior Member
Senior Member

Male
Joined: 25 July 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4752

Posted: 10 December 2007 at 10:39pm

And, more over, as the fabled Sikh had said, you won't have to hide your assets in some ivory tower!

My next post is coming. It will be titled: For Pobre Israfilii of our World. You pretend to be a Muslim while hugging idols, flags and and other bulls.

Today, I am busy travelling to Manchester, I will do it from there. My friend, see how hard I am trying to climb into your book!

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Hayfa Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Female Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2368	Posted: 07 December 2007 at 8:22pm
	History and knowing history IS important. Too many people are in a state of denial about things. I think what is not really understood is the profound affect the actions have on our lives today, espcially those who were affected in very negative ways. I was recently watching a show on National Public Television. They do very good work. And I forget the name of the host.. he was asking several journalists about what the US should do.. and the western journalists, all pretty good were like.. well if we leave blah, blah, blah.. And there was one Iraqi journalist. His main words were "get out." "You have no idea what you are doing here. You don't know our history, you don't know our culture." People in the west often do not look at the picture from "the other side" in its international history. I took a class in college on methodologies of history and how the way history is presented shapes our world view. I think it is important to debunk the myth that governments or rulers really care about the people they oppress or enslave etc. There may have been one or two people in the governemts who approached the people with paternalism, (we need to "educate the heathens or the natives"). But rarely was respect part of it. Edited by Hayfa
	When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi

Whisper Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Male Joined: 25 July 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4752	Posted: 07 December 2007 at 8:36pm
	But rarely was respect part of it. You know what's the problem with your posts? These shut everybody up, even I have gone just plain speechless. Yes, the Brits had built hospitals and a lot of other things in India, but not a single one of our friends answered my simple question: who paid for all of these? I hold firm evidence that our great Queen Victoria didn't auction off her wedding ring to pay for these! Edited by Whisper

Duende Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 27 July 2005 Status: Offline Points: 651	Posted: 08 December 2007 at 8:39am
	Saladin, if you do not know where you came from (i.e your history) then you shall not know where you are going. Yes, you make the usual points about Muslims needing to concentrate on today and get their act together in order to move forward. This is simply common sense and it is amazing to me why everybody who mentions it seems to think they've hit upon the great answer to the problems of today's ummah.... it's just common sense, akin to picking yourself up, dusting yourself down and carrying on. It solves precisely NOTHING. Whether or not the British population as a whole accept their people committed atrocities in the past is highly debateable. I doubt any British school history lesson clarifies the mistreatement of 'the darkies' perpetrated by the British Commonwealth, in Her Majesty's name. It simply is not taught. This is called revisionism. It's not taught in any ex- Empire. It is not all about throwing blame and highlighting the terrible things carried out by past colonial powers, although this certainly needs to be done, since very few today are aware of them. It is simply relating things from the other perspective: that of the oppressed. If you are worried about the disunity and fragmentation of the ummah, you must know the root causes of it, and identify those who continue to fan the flames and embers of it. Let me ask you something: imagine around 6 million Muslims being gassed and starved to death by an oppressive regime, let's say about 70 years ago, what kind of politics would we be seeing today? Do you think a lobby group called something like the American-Muslim Public Affairs Committee would be working hard to uphold the Arabic and Muslim populations best interests, influencing governments and foreign policy? Do you think there would be laws world wide making it illegal to question the historic facts and data? Do you see how important it can be to get the facts right, out there and in the public consciousness? Or maybe you'd like to look at the fate of the American Red Indian Nation? To this day, denied their true identity by the st**id label 'red Indian' instead of their separate tribal identities. Why? because Columbus made a mistake when he reached the shores of America. He was convinced he had reached the Indies by way of the Western sea route he was seeking. He thought he was in India (although even in those days, this was a blanket term for anything farther away than Syria) and so the natives were dubbed Indians ..... can you see how important it is to get the proper historic perspective, and to constantly tell people about it?

Israfil Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984	Posted: 09 December 2007 at 12:04am
	History and knowing history IS important. Too many people are in a state of denial about things. I think what is not really understood is the profound affect the actions have on our lives today, espcially those who were affected in very negative ways. Agreed. But how much emphasis are we putting into past historical events to contemporary issues? Past historical events are causal factors true, but in discussing policies in a forum setting how much more redundant are we going to make this issue called "history?" Too many people on this planet in general are definitely in denial about a lot of things. Again, we cannot isolate any country, people, or any nation geographically as if one group is ignorant or in denial about a past historical event. They do very good work. And I forget the name of the host.. he was asking several journalists about what the US should do.. and the western journalists, all pretty good were like.. well if we leave blah, blah, blah.. And there was one Iraqi journalist. His main words were "get out." "You have no idea what you are doing here. You don't know our history, you don't know our culture." I agree. let the Marines, Army, National guard come home and let them (Iraqi, Afghanistanians) destroy themselves. The government current there is more powerful than the Hoover vaccum. People in the west often do not look at the picture from "the other side" in its international history. I took a class in college on methodologies of history and how the way history is presented shapes our world view. Like any other academic study what you've learned in that methodologies course with respect to history, has also shaped your view on past historical events, does what you've learned necessarily make it true? Just a question. I think it is important to debunk the myth that governments or rulers really care about the people they oppress or enslave etc. There may have been one or two people in the governemts who approached the people with paternalism, (we need to "educate the heathens or the natives"). But rarely was respect part of it. Agreed. I also love the fact how you hide in your own ivory tower of logical deductions thinking or, shall we say, believeing just this to be the be all and end all of life! What ridiculous nonsense! This has nothing to do with hiding. This has to do with being annoyed by posts that sound redundant. My friend, the day your country ends the ugly criminal occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, you won't have wash the bloodstains of your flag with your precious tears and such empty posts. Till then, my friend, the occupied will fight at every single front and in every which way. The day you post something novel outside the scope of redundancy then will you acheive an enlightened status in my book. Edited by Israfil

Servetus Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Male Joined: 04 April 2001 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2109	Posted: 10 December 2007 at 2:11pm
	I am not sure but, by writing and posting that opening piece, I think that Whisper might publicly have blown his chance to be invited to join the Grillions dining club. Serv __________________________________ �Black is not just the colour of our skins, it�s the colour of our politics.� (Ambalavaner Sivanandan)

Whisper Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Male Joined: 25 July 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4752	Posted: 10 December 2007 at 10:34pm
	This has to do with being annoyed by posts that sound redundant. Oh, thank you, kind Sir, for the award! How many people am I allowed to bring with me at your Redundant investiture ceremony? The day you post something novel outside the scope of redundancy then will you acheive an enlightened status in my book. I am trying, trying very hard, Master, to climb into your Book! I had thought you just lived in your ivory tower, but sadly enough, you live b e y o n d. Let me make just THE ONLY VALID POINT absolutely clear and in no uncertain TERMS: My friend, the day your country ends the ugly criminal occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan, you won't have to wash the bloodstains of your flag with your precious tears and such empty posts. Do I make myself clear? If you still don't find it as the ONLY VALID point, please let me know for then I will know *which entrance* to climb your Doomsday book through?

Angel Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Joined: 03 July 2001 Status: Offline Points: 6641	Posted: 10 December 2007 at 10:39pm
	looks like its getting to the brickering point Edited by Angel
	~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~

Whisper Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Senior Member Male Joined: 25 July 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4752	Posted: 10 December 2007 at 10:39pm
	And, more over, as the fabled Sikh had said, you won't have to hide your assets in some ivory tower! My next post is coming. It will be titled: For Pobre Israfilii of our World. You pretend to be a Muslim while hugging idols, flags and and other bulls. Today, I am busy travelling to Manchester, I will do it from there. My friend, see how hard I am trying to climb into your book!