S. Korean hostages beaten for Christ |
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Israfil
Senior Member Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984 |
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Tom123 funny how in response to me you use the word hatred and armed as if those are things that are common to me (or common in true Islamic practice). First off I do not hate them nor do I think what they did is wrong in the sense that their intention was purely humanitarian. HOWEVER, seeing how those areas are known to be run by the Taliban and seeing how the Taliban is hostile towards non-muslims I think common sense would take over here. If they cared about doing humanitarian work and making changes why not do humanitarian work through Muslim elements why put yourself in harm's way? Islamispeace autonomy is not synonymous with right action. Just because "it is their choice" doesn't mean it was the right choice. Judging from your poor response would you say a suicidal person has the right to kill themselves and that, it is ok because they are an autonomous human being? I would suspect not. I think these missionaries were doing so-called humanitarian work but with intention of conversion. I have friends over seas serving and basically Christian missionaries basically set up bath houses but these places are only avaliable to people who are "saved" yes real godly people eh? |
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Tom123
Senior Member Joined: 04 July 2007 Location: Gibraltar Status: Offline Points: 186 |
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Hi Israfil, I did not say that Islam is hateful, I said your words are hateful and contemptful towards these people. I am glad to hear that you do not hate them. The South Koreans went with a Christian group because they wanted to serve the poor of Afghanistan and they wanted to bring glory to Christ. No, not by prosyletizing but when we Christians help others we believe that by our actions we are bringing glory to God. I apologize for butting in your conversation with islamispeace, but can you provide me any proof whatsoever that the South Koreans were only helping Afghans who converted to Christianity? A question for you though, Israfil. Say a group of Muslims working for the charity Islamic Relief entered a non-Muslim area to help non-Muslims, and were targeted by an armed group who was opposed to Islam. Say they were also kidnapped, tortured, and let's say some of these people were killed. Would you be so critical of them as well? Personally I would think they would be heroes. It takes a lot of courage to risk your life to help people you don't know. Cristo Vive! - Tomasz |
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Israfil
Senior Member Joined: 08 September 2003 Status: Offline Points: 3984 |
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Tom123 Soldiers are heroes. Police Officers are heroes. Firefighters are heroes. Religious figures are heroes. Misguided religious idealist do not count as heroes in my book. Any group who is conscious of a dangerous warzone and knows the possibility that they may be either be permanantly incapacitated or seriously harmed but still proceeds to do the work anyway is not heroism its called st**idity. I would be equallys (and even more critical) of Muslims who proceeded to go to a non-muslim area especially if they were conscious of the consequences. Saving lives is one thing because its a moral necessity but humanitarian work can always be done without putting yourself in harm's way. This is a similar point I was getting to with Islamispeace when he said that these korean missionaries have a choice. What I was explaining to him was that autonomy, that is, us sovereign beings, have the ability to make "free" choices but not every free choice is logical. Tom123 even reading my criticism of those former hostages I didn't see any "hateful" words. I think your subjectively is misattributed because nothing that I've said outside my normal behavior was hateful. Hateful or hate is a strong word therefore I ask you for strong evidence showing what I said in my words that were hateful. Just because I called their actions st**id doesn't mean the word st**id is hateful. It an be an insult but its not hateful. BTW most missionary work today is covert Christian conversion we can start with the bible belt for instance by reading this old article:
Edited by Israfil |
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Hayfa
Senior Member Female Joined: 07 June 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2368 |
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Also, Whose arrogance is that I think I "know" how to help these people? Do the folks speak Dar, Farsi etc? What do they have to offer? Why not donate to the Red Crescent? The Afghani people have had their world destroyed. By outsiders coming in.. and you know, I spoek once a long time ago to a woman talking at my school about the women in India, oppression etc. I asked her what we could do, she said fix your government. Considering outsiders are in the land, and call people there the "enemy" (meaning Afghanis) cause they aren't doing what we want them to do, why and how can people tell the difference? What they should have done is work for peace by changing their government's policy, not supporting US. See I don't feel much Tom, cause you know what, hundreds of thousands of people havedied over there. Why oh why are they any different then the other people? The people there just would like us all to leave.. They would like to leave. And on top of it, sorry but the South Koreans are HUGE evangelicals. Huge. If you wanto help, gather the food and give it to CARE or another international aid group. And really, why aren't they going to the Christian African nations? why not? There is tons and tons of poverty there.. but no one to convert.. hmmm I appreciate anyone who aims to do good. But this is all fishy. And i grew up in the Liberation Theology tradition of Catholicism and have great respect for many of them. But you don't head into a war with no credentials or knowledge. Really they not only endanger themselves, they are endangering others.
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When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Tom123
Senior Member Joined: 04 July 2007 Location: Gibraltar Status: Offline Points: 186 |
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Israfil, I strongly disagree, particularly with the soldiers. I believe that the heroes in our world are people who do their best to help others and take risks for doing so, but that they do not carry guns. Then again, bear in mind I am writing from a Christian viewpoint, and so I believe that the use of violence is never justified since Jesus said we are to love our enemies. I recognize there are some Christians who will disagree with me on this, but I challenge anyone to try justify war or violence of any kind in light of what Jesus taught. But I may be digressing a bit here. Although I believe that there are many soldiers who are brave and I have nothing against them, I do not believe they are heroes.
Yes.
Depends which ones. I think we agree that the 'hero' title would not apply to Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
OK, thank you for being so frank with me. I appreciate hearing your view, but strongly disagree. I believe that when we see people suffering we have an obligation to do what we can to help them, and if that means placing our lives in danger or even losing them, so be it. Giving money to charities for example may be a 'safer' way, but often there is a lot of controversy about how much of that cash gets there. BTW someone had to deliver these medicines, is that not correct? So if these South Koreans did not go, someone else would have in their place. They were doing a very dangerous job and if it wasn't them it could have been someone else.
How do you define 'logical'? Are you saying that because these people took a risk that their actions were illogical? Perhaps if the person deciding what is or is not logical (I'm not saying that person would be you) defines 'logical' as doing something that is safe. I believe that serving God is not always safe.
Alright, you do have a point here, Israfil. Hate was a strong and now that I look back on this discussion an inappropriate word to describe your response. Insulting would be a better word. I still strongly disagree with you on this issue but I take back calling your words 'hateful' and I apologize.
Thank you for this article, I have read it in 2003 actually and have a copy of it. I'll share some of my thoughts on it. I personally think that the attitude of these missionaries is quite arrogant, and that they are wrong to be insulting the beliefs of Muslims. Calling Muhammad a 'demon obsessed paedophile' is false, hateful, idiotic and counterproductive to any dialogue. As you probably know, I am not a Muslim and I do not believe that all of Islam's teachings are true, but I think that this sort of language is not right. The article seems to speak of members of Pentecostal and Baptist churches, almost all of whom unfortunately supported and continue to support the invasion of Iraq. These 'missions' are being organized by Southern Baptists- who I am assuming are linked to the Southern Baptist Convention, which supported the war. As Christians, they should have been calling out against it and denouncing it and protesting against it. I believe that their main 'rivals' should not be Muslim leaders or other Christians, but their government who launched this brutal invasion. I do believe that as Christians we have a responsibility to live out the Gospel and share our faith with others. Sorry. I think that if Christians go on missions trips, we should live with the people we are working with and take the time to listen to them and learn from them. I believe when we give material help it should not be with an air of superiority or arrogance, like the whole 'look at us we are such nice people' giving gifts to these 'poor souls'. We need to remember (especially Westerners) that often the people we are serving are suffering because of the policies of our country's leaderships. We need to realize that like us they are created in Gods' likeness and His image, and that like us Jesus died for them on the cross. I believe we should share our faith with them, but the help that we provide needs to be unconditional. We can't refuse to help people if they don't want to become Christians, that would be a travesty of everything that Jesus taught. For an example of what I think true Christian missions are like, check out the MCCs website, www.mcc.org . The South Koreans who went to Afghanistan btw of course were not with the Southern Baptist Convention, and I have not read anything to suggest that they were demonizing Muhammad or only providing help to Christians or people who said they were going to become Christians. So I don't see how the above mentioned article would apply to them. Cristo Vive! - Tomasz |
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Tom123
Senior Member Joined: 04 July 2007 Location: Gibraltar Status: Offline Points: 186 |
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Giving donations is certainly one way to help. Going there personally is another, and I see nothing wrong with it. Do you think that the Taleban would not have kidnapped and murdered Red Crescent workers? Had these people not went, someone else who would have could have also been kidnapped and murdered.
I fully agree that we need to be challenging the policies of our governments when they lead to imperialism and injustice. But there are many possible ways to help, and aid work is certainly one of them. You certainly support at least one aid group, the Red Crescent (as do I). So just as there is a need for protest, there is also a need for aid work. If all the Red Crescent members decided to disband their charity and stop their work and devote their energies to government changing only, imagine how many would die. The actions of the South Koreans were no less important.
I may have overlooked something, but where did the missionaries call the people of Afghanistan 'the enemy'? Where does it say that the South Koreans ordered the Afghans around or told them what to believe? In fact, they did not even talk about their faith openly (except possibly when refusing to accept Islam under the pain of being beaten).
I agree that they should have voiced their opposition to the war, I do not know if they did. I certainly oppose it. But that does not mean that activism is the only possible action to take. Aid work is important too.
I believe they would like the US soldiers, NATO occupying troops and foreign militants fighting for the Taleban and/or Al Qaeda to leave. I believe most would like to see the Taleban and Northern Alliance leave them alone, too. I don't know if they would want aid workers who are providing them with food and medicine to leave. Every human life is precious, and you are right, the deaths of the aid workers are not sad or tragic than the deaths of Afghanis whose deaths are not more sad or tragic than the deaths of Congolese people. I believe that the courage of the South Korean aid workers was admirable, as was their commitment to following Jesus so I wrote this post.
So? How does that make their work any less important or less worthy of support?
Why not to them? Because they are Christians?
How do you know they do not go to Christian African nations? This may or may not be on topic, but I have a bit of missions experience myself. I went on a missions trip to El Salvador last summer, I spent 2 weeks with a group of El Salvadoran social workers working for the Evangelical Lutheran Church in El Salvador who are involved in working among prisoners to teach them about peaceful alternatives to violence and with street youth to organize activities and keep them out of gangs. The program was founded and is led by a Canadian missionary. Both the ELCIES and a Catholic aid group in El Salvador, CRIDPES, are also otspoken in their opposition to abuses committed by foreign mining companies and during the war have opposed the US backed military regimes. One of my friends' friend in CRIDPES has been arrested recently for helping organize a rally against water privatization. She is being charged with 'terrorism'. The people in ELCIES who I have worked with did awesome social justice work and they do it in the name of Jesus and yes, they do talk about Him to others when oppurtunities arise, which is pretty often. My role? I went there, observed what they had done, prayed with them, learned from them. In Canada, I have spoken and written about my time there to raise awareness among Canadians and particularly Canadian Christians about the injustices that my El Salvadoran brothers and sisters are facing each day. I also send money to them when I can and keep in touch with them and pray for them and do my best to encourage them in their work.
I don't see how this is 'fishy'.
What kind of 'credentials' would you say are necessary? I believe that if we see people suffering, we should do everything we can to help them. Help can come in different ways, and what these people did in my opinion certainly was good and appropriate. Cristo Vive! - Tomasz |
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mariyah
Senior Member Joined: 29 March 2006 Status: Offline Points: 1283 |
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Tom 123, I agree with Isafril; Didnt Jesus state that we should not harm the children? So is it nice to taunt children by stating if they want food for their families they need to sing a Jesus song? Is that how your propagate the faith? You should watch the clip on Utube showing what they were really doing. And judge not yet ye not be judged. And see the documentary of the Crusades, the Crescent and the Cross, done by the history channel. You might then understand why Crusaders are not welcome in some parts of the world. Open your mind and expand.
Edited by Maryah |
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"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.
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Tom123
Senior Member Joined: 04 July 2007 Location: Gibraltar Status: Offline Points: 186 |
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What clip are you talking about, could you send me the link please? This is the first time I heard accusations that these people were forcing children to sing Christian songs in order to get food. Are you saying that these people told the kids that if they want to get food they need to sing songs about Jesus? If that is true, then their actions were despicable and indeed worthy of condemnation. I personally find this a bit hard to believe, not least because I think the secular media would have immediately exposed something like this. I haven't seen this documentary, but I think it is unfair to refer to these people as 'crusaders'. The crusaders were a brutal, murderous invading army who looted, raped and slaughtered their way across every part of Eastern Europe and the Middle East they went to. These people did not kill anyone. Lastly, I'm not judging or condemning the Taleban, US Army, NATO or anyone else. I am condemning their sick acts of violence, but not them as people. I believe they can be saved if they repent and put their faith in Jesus Christ. Cristo Vive! - Tomasz |
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